Weights In The Fight Game

[OUTCOLDFIGHTCLUB.ORG]

as a very ex non competitive bodybuilder i like to try and get all fighters to use weights and pay attention to nutrition to help their body recover and strengthen but constantly seem to hear how this will slow them down!?
my old boxing coach was terrible for this as are a lot of the old school trainers. whats everyone elses views on this?
personally i couldnt amagine fight training without weights being a big part of my training, what about everyone else?

[Kaiser Soze]

I have been hitting the weights in a big way for the last 4 months and have found the increase in strength nothing but positive in the clinch / grappling, I have an "Old School" boxing coach that keeps on telling me if I get any bigger i'll have problems but he says nothing but praise about the power that I have Put On, LOL.

Think this is an example of how the "Sport" has moved on!

The only problem i'm concerned with is putting on weight (be it muscle mass) as Im 5'7 and 90KG! and having to fight much taller opponents!

[Jamie Taylor]

Old school trainers = Noobs

I have friends who box and when I tell them to do any type of weights all they say is " No way man, reggie says it will slow me down "

I'm fed up of trying to explain, its almost as annoying as women not doing weights cos theyll " get massive like arnie "

You will find older trainers are very set in their ways and wont listen, some will but unfortunately most wont ever stray from what they were taught years ago and wht they belive to be the truth.

[OUTCOLDFIGHTCLUB.ORG]

so far this is kinda what i have been up against.

[Badnews]

it makes a huge difference how you use weights of course, which i think is the most important aspect in this. i've been guilty of training for size - when strength training is quite different and far more applicable to mma!
one problem i found though is maintaining any sort of consistent weights routine as, by its nature, mma tends to leave you with the odd injury or two! (my elbows just lurve armbars :D ).

[Jamie Taylor]

sorry was supposed to be a new thread duh..

[matt@westfightcompany]

I have been hitting the weights in a big way for the last 4 months and have found the increase in strength nothing but positive in the clinch / grappling, I have an "Old School" boxing coach that keeps on telling me if I get any bigger i'll have problems but he says nothing but praise about the power that I have Put On, LOL.

Think this is an example of how the "Sport" has moved on!

The only problem i'm concerned with is putting on weight (be it muscle mass) as Im 5'7 and 90KG! and having to fight much taller opponents!

Had the same problem when I started training again, i was 5'7 and about 86kg, when the other guys my height are about 60kg!

I'm down to about 81 now but have lost a lot of strength. The ratio of strength to body weight is much worse now compared to carrying an extra 5 kilos. Deadlift is down from 205 to 160! didn't expect such a drop but I haven't done any weights for about 3 months. The extra strength would have done no harm against taller guys. Still won't fix the 5+ inches in height I'm missing though :(

I still definetley think if I got to a level where I was going to fight, I'd have to drop to 75 or less to even out the reach issue. That's the only problem with weight training for me. I thought I was more explosive before I lost the weight!

On the flip side if I was strong but couldn't fight because I was knackered in seconds (like when I'd just started mma again), then the strength is no use to me! All about balance, bring up the strength when the other skills/techniques are there, that way you don't rely on strength to get you out of trouble.

[Leigh]

Some interesting posts here. I agree with what has been said so far. IMHO, not doing strength training is just silly if you are an athlete. I don't think you necessarily have to lift the same way I would, or even lift at all, but why be weaker than you need to be?

That said, I do think weights will slow you down and cause you to gas quicker. The slow movements and all out effort used can program your body to work the wrong way. I would therefore advise building a strength base and then coming off weights well in advance of any competitions. Some guys find its not a problem, others do. I would also advocate a lot more stretching during a weight training phase.

On the issue of height, I have noticed that a good height for feather is around 5'7 (my height) and about 5'9 works well for lightweights. I think as the athletes improve, the heights will increase and the weight will decrease, so a featherweight will be optimum at 5'9 for example. Being short is useful for shooting a double and sitting in guard but being taller is more useful for striking, clinch and submission work. These are more technical requirements and will be more important as the game progresses.

[OUTCOLDFIGHTCLUB.ORG]

some good objective comments here guys. personally i find as long as im sparring/rolling/stretching i have nothing but benefits from weightraining in all aspects. finding a happy medium is the key however.

[Jamie Taylor]

I think even one strength training session a week will do any fighter a world of good and shouldnt get in the way of the rest of his training too much.

[Duchman]

i stopped lifting heavy iron.. It made me to heavy.. trying to fight at 65.8 kilo while walking aroun at 77 is no fun

[Hywel Teague]

On the issue of height, I have noticed that a good height for feather is around 5'7 (my height) and about 5'9 works well for lightweights. I think as the athletes improve, the heights will increase and the weight will decrease, so a featherweight will be optimum at 5'9 for example. Being short is useful for shooting a double and sitting in guard but being taller is more useful for striking, clinch and submission work. These are more technical requirements and will be more important as the game progresses.
That's a very bizarre yet rather intriguing theory.

I don't agree, but it is intriguing that you came up with it.

[dirty dick]

I'm not sure i disagree, certainly if it was judo i would be saying it is a sport for all body types (certain throws suit certain shapes) but this involves striking which i feel suits the taller fighter.

[Gaylord]

changing the subject slightly, I'M not a member of a gym but I have some dumbbells what can I do with these ? I use mostly body weight exercises at the moment but it would be nice to make use of these dumbbells.

[Leigh]

That's a very bizarre yet rather intriguing theory.

I don't agree, but it is intriguing that you came up with it.

What do you disagree with? What is bizarre about it?

[matt@westfightcompany]

On the issue of height, I have noticed that a good height for feather is around 5'7 (my height) and about 5'9 works well for lightweights. I think as the athletes improve, the heights will increase and the weight will decrease, so a featherweight will be optimum at 5'9 for example. Being short is useful for shooting a double and sitting in guard but being taller is more useful for striking, clinch and submission work. These are more technical requirements and will be more important as the game progresses.

That's pretty much what I was getting at with the comments regarding height. At my current weight (81kg) depending on how much I could cut, I reckon I'd be fighting someone 5'11 ish if they were in fight shape. It's possible they wouldn't be as strong but I think that could be easily be outweighed by the reach advantage if they were a decent striker.

I suppose the argument would be if the two fighters were equal skilled in terms of technique/conditioning, would the benefit of reach/leverage etc outweigh the benefit of strength.

I'm confusing myself now, as they couldn't really be equally skilled because of the reach advantage for striking and benefit of strength for wrestling!

Out of interest Leigh, if you don't mind saying, what weight will/did you cut from to get down to feather weight?
Are you doing anything diffrently regarding strength training for your fight coming up compared to your previous fights?

[powerhouse76]

this is a very interesting thread:eek: im 5.7 and 100kg and had done weight training for 10 years before getting in to mma and i am constantly thinking of whether to try and lose weight or stick at heavyweight, alot of the taller heavyweights say i pose a different threat with the being shorter :)

[matt@westfightcompany]

this is a very interesting thread:eek: im 5.7 and 100kg and had done weight training for 10 years before getting in to mma and i am constantly thinking of whether to try and lose weight or stick at heavyweight, alot of the taller heavyweights say i pose a different threat with the being shorter :)

That is big at 5'7! Even at 6' that's still big! Maybe we should start some sort of shorties heavy weight division. Maximum height 5'7" minimum weight 85kg!

In terms of striking ability, mike zambidis has some good success against taller opposition, although not in MMA. I think he's about 5'6 and 85kg. Beaten some much taller opposition (this kind of defeats myearlier argument :rolleyes: )

[Leigh]

I suppose the argument would be if the two fighters were equal skilled in terms of technique/conditioning, would the benefit of reach/leverage etc outweigh the benefit of strength.

I don't think being shorter in and of itself makes you any stronger. Stronger in the gym maybe, cos stumpy arms and legs don't have to move very far, but when you have a tall, wirey guy clinch you, its horrible. I suppose you could try to argue that if they are taller, more weight is taken up by skeleton etc and therefore the shorter guy has the potential to hold more muscle but strength doesn't work that way


Out of interest Leigh, if you don't mind saying, what weight will/did you cut from to get down to feather weight?
Are you doing anything diffrently regarding strength training for your fight coming up compared to your previous fights?

Despite my previous trolling, I've never really cut that much. I was probably one the first UK MMA guys to have a go at cutting weight, because I was fighting yanks at 70kg who were coming in a stone heavier. I found 10lbs was about right - if my opponent cuts 15lbs, I'm not bothered about a 5lb weight difference. If he cuts more than that, I doubt he'd be in any shape to compete. Also, going above 70kg for me means cutting out cardio, as I walk between 66-70kg. I've tried cutting from 73+ and it was too much, although I didn't go down the diuretic/IV route that a lot of guys seem to be switching to

Hope that helps :)

[matt@westfightcompany]

I suppose you could try to argue that if they are taller, more weight is taken up by skeleton etc and therefore the shorter guy has the potential to hold more muscle but strength doesn't work that way

That was what I was going to argue! I think I'm still a bit in the (old school) powerlifting mind set of generally being heavier equals being stronger, but we're talking about different ways of applying that strength, and the fact that powerlifting relies on leverage as much as other areas. This is probably the reason tall guys feel 'strong' in the clinch (leverage) despite their absolute strength levels being lower (in a weight lifting context)...(perhaps!)

With regards to the weight cutting that does help, if I cut ten pounds I'd be down to around 75 from my current weight which is getting closer to what I would consider a suitable weight for my height. I think I could cut a bit more than that without suffering to bad as I'm not too lean at the moment, over a longer period slowly dropping the weight, then do the ten pounds. Could work! Thanks for the info.

[jcraig80]

I don't think being shorter in and of itself makes you any stronger. Stronger in the gym maybe, cos stumpy arms and legs don't have to move very far, but when you have a tall, wirey guy clinch you, its horrible. I suppose you could try to argue that if they are taller, more weight is taken up by skeleton etc and therefore the shorter guy has the potential to hold more muscle but strength doesn't work that way



Despite my previous trolling, I've never really cut that much. I was probably one the first UK MMA guys to have a go at cutting weight, because I was fighting yanks at 70kg who were coming in a stone heavier. I found 10lbs was about right - if my opponent cuts 15lbs, I'm not bothered about a 5lb weight difference. If he cuts more than that, I doubt he'd be in any shape to compete. Also, going above 70kg for me means cutting out cardio, as I walk between 66-70kg. I've tried cutting from 73+ and it was too much, although I didn't go down the diuretic/IV route that a lot of guys seem to be switching to

Hope that helps :)

What are the official weights for mma? Different organisations seem to us different categories?

[MaNuAl]

I tend to steer clear of weights(machines, free weights) and prefer to use my own bodyweight.

That way, I'm not over bulking and building excessive muscle.

I do however have an old tractor tyre at the bottom of my field. Flipping that over is an awesome strength/conditioning excercise - although bad for your back if you don't know how to lift.

Lo y2kfireblade (Sys0p on MLR :D)

[Smiler]

Hi!

As you guys know, I'm not a fan of 'traditional' weight training, as I feel there are far more important and relevent things to do with your training time.

However, I think that resistance training is a must, and you are mad as an athlete if you don't do it!

Injury prevention, strength, explosivity, durability, static strength...improvements to be made.

The only thing is, I don't believe traditional weights have half as much benefit as other stuff you could be doing with reference to MMA.

But, if done correctly, you won't bulk up (unless you want to), you won't get slower, in fact, if done correctly, you could definately speed up...

Smiler

[OUTCOLDFIGHTCLUB.ORG]

Lo y2kfireblade (Sys0p on MLR :D)

you a member mate?

[kungfukris]

im in the process of trying to drop a few pounds at the moment for a wrestling comp end of jan. i used to only lift heavy and my cardio was shit and i was about 70kg at 5'7", with bad tendonitis in both arms. im down to about 65kg now trying to get to 63kg and the only relatively heavy stuff im doing at the moment are deadlifts. ive bin using the randy couture barbell routine and im finding that's giving me MUCH better mma related endurance and i generally feel better when rolling.
also the rosstraining.com strength and power training is very good if you fancy throwing dumbells around and climbing trees etc. not your traditional weights routines by any means but very sport specific!

if anyone has any good weights routines i can use for upper body endurance it would be greatly apreciated, gotta keep things varied!

[MaNuAl]

you a member mate?

That I am, I'm Sys0p on MLR! :) Speaking of which, better update the photo's on my IV thread!

[stapes360]

Its not what you do.... its how you do it!!!

Yes, a traditional bodybuilbing programme would be detremental to a fighter because it does what it says on the tin I.E the whole point of a body building programme is to build muscle, the strength gain are only a By-product.

However a STRENGTH training programme IS essential for a combat athelete. By strength programme i mean a programme that concentrates on strengtheing the movements you use in mma, sternghthening the core aswell as a using a few cornerstone exercise (snatch, squat..). But a strength training programme should be just that I.E Gaining strength. Any size increses are as a By-product of the demands imposed by strength training.

Ross training.com has some interesting and correct (IMO) articles about strength training for combat atheletes.

as a side note, i recently did the ABA (Amateur Boxing Assoaiation) Full badge coaching award (as part of my job includes trainning amateur boxers in the marines) and they are now actually promoting the use of strength training to their coaches, this shows that even some of the "old and bold" are starting to understand the benefeits of proper strength training.

Stapes.

[stapes360]

.

The only thing is, I don't believe traditional weights have half as much benefit as other stuff you could be doing with reference to MMA.

But, if done correctly, you won't bulk up (unless you want to), you won't get slower, in fact, if done correctly, you could definately speed up...

Smiler

Exactly, good post. Like i said at teh top of my post- its not what you do, its how you do it!!

[Fast but dim]

Its not what you do.... its how you do it!!!

Yes, a traditional bodybuilbing programme would be detremental to a fighter because it does what it says on the tin I.E the whole point of a body building programme is to build muscle, the strength gain are only a By-product.

However a STRENGTH training programme IS essential for a combat athelete. By strength programme i mean a programme that concentrates on strengtheing the movements you use in mma, sternghthening the core aswell as a using a few cornerstone exercise (snatch, squat..). But a strength training programme should be just that I.E Gaining strength. Any size increses are as a By-product of the demands imposed by strength training.

Ross training.com has some interesting and correct (IMO) articles about strength training for combat atheletes.



Stapes.


spot on: bodybuilding routines are shite for any serious athlete.Ross is a conditioning god!


http://www.rosstraining.com/

check the site, maybe put his name into piratebay;) ,but i'd recommend buying a book off his site.

[stapes360]

spot on: bodybuilding routines are shite for any serious athlete.Ross is a conditioning god!


http://www.rosstraining.com/

check the site, maybe put his name into piratebay;) ,but i'd recommend buying a book off his site.

My Boss bought ALL of Ross's manuals a while ago and copied them all for us. There is a whole section in our PT libbrary now.

[Rocket man]

I do one day all over body strength training with weights, and the rest of the week concentrate on tabatas for conditioning.
I used to do three days weights which was too much for me and made me feel constantly tired and achey.

I feel great now never been so fit maybe its personal preferance.

[hardhead]

in my opinion weights are good for boxing and mma, the only difference ive seen with training with weights is that fighters should always stretch before,during and after there workout as to not shorten the muscle so they have more reach, better extention and more flexibility and body builders that ive personally trained with have never stretched an theyve limited flexibility imo.

[Jimmy]

Had the same problem when I started training again, i was 5'7 and about 86kg, when the other guys my height are about 60kg!

I'm down to about 81 now but have lost a lot of strength. The ratio of strength to body weight is much worse now compared to carrying an extra 5 kilos. Deadlift is down from 205 to 160! didn't expect such a drop but I haven't done any weights for about 3 months. The extra strength would have done no harm against taller guys. Still won't fix the 5+ inches in height I'm missing though :(

I still definetley think if I got to a level where I was going to fight, I'd have to drop to 75 or less to even out the reach issue. That's the only problem with weight training for me. I thought I was more explosive before I lost the weight!

On the flip side if I was strong but couldn't fight because I was knackered in seconds (like when I'd just started mma again), then the strength is no use to me! All about balance, bring up the strength when the other skills/techniques are there, that way you don't rely on strength to get you out of trouble.


Good post mate, Im in the same predicament, we have mini tournaments from time to time and at 5'9 and 90kg Im fucked against guys over 6' :(

I think guys our height need to be fighting at 70-75kg to even things up.

Thing is I like powerlifting and haven't really dropped weight since starting, Ive lost fat but obviously retained some muscle and even grown perhaps.

[matt@westfightcompany]

That's pretty much my problem! I think 70 is about the right weight for me, but like you, I like training heavy! I'm trying a few different things now, incorporating dynamic days doing box jumps and sprints etc. I'm enjoying that.

Also got myself a sledge hammer and a tyre for conditioning, mix that in with hill sprints and rope work, did that this morning, it was good. I do my strength work (it's powerlifting in disguise!) split into a Westside sort of template with an upperbody max effort and a lower body max effort. With lighter days for conditioning/complexes/sprints etc in between. It's basically the WS4SB 3 by DeFranco (http://www.elitefts.com/ws4sb/default.asp worth a look as it allows you to do heavy training still, but mixes in other areas) for his athletes that need strength/power/agility. I'm no athlete but it makes a lot of sense to me how it's split up. I used a proper WSB style split when I was powerlifting but it ruined me in weeks!

Still at a similar weight now it, seems to have levelled off. Diet is a big part as I'm eating far less than when I was just powerlifting, it's nice to be able to walk without my legs rubbing together!

If you mean grow, as in height, tell me the secret! ;)

[Jimmy]

That's pretty much my problem! I think 70 is about the right weight for me, but like you, I like training heavy! I'm trying a few different things now, incorporating dynamic days doing box jumps and sprints etc. I'm enjoying that.

Also got myself a sledge hammer and a tyre for conditioning, mix that in with hill sprints and rope work, did that this morning, it was good. I do my strength work (it's powerlifting in disguise!) split into a Westside sort of template with an upperbody max effort and a lower body max effort. With lighter days for conditioning/complexes/sprints etc in between. It's basically the WS4SB 3 by DeFranco (http://www.elitefts.com/ws4sb/default.asp worth a look as it allows you to do heavy training still, but mixes in other areas) for his athletes that need strength/power/agility. I'm no athlete but it makes a lot of sense to me how it's split up. I used a proper WSB style split when I was powerlifting but it ruined me in weeks!

Still at a similar weight now it, seems to have levelled off. Diet is a big part as I'm eating far less than when I was just powerlifting, it's nice to be able to walk without my legs rubbing together!

If you mean grow, as in height, tell me the secret! ;)

Nice article mate, ill have a proper read up on that later. :D

I think the problem with me is that I want to train but at the same time I like how I look at this weight, I spent a lot of time and eating...lol...to get to where I am, and now it looks like I need to sacrifice some size to come in sharper and quicker, I think because of my structure I look fairly scrawny at 70kg at 5'9 - this is one one reason I started training again in powerlifting. I saw a picture of me on holiday and I looked fukin ill :o

But, its a balancing act, I enjoy the competition even if ill never make a great fighter, its still fun and keep us all healthy eh?:)

[matt@westfightcompany]

I know what you mean! It's hurts a bit to see the work I put into lifting go down the tubes! My other problem is I'd like to do all of it ideally, but there has to be a trade off somewhere, just because of he time involved in doing it all properly.

To be honest I could happily do either and really it's a bonus that strength training is beneficial for mma and useful for being strong! I think as a 'lifestyle' training for fighting is a better way to go (except the being punched and smashed about :D ) compared to all you can eat powerlifting, I loved training but it's not the best I've ever felt... :)

[bigleeroy1]

come on guys your either a bodybulider or a fighter you cant be both it all depends on what you want most to be a good fighter or big muscle head in your tight top at the bar, to be honest i hardly do any weights my conditioning all centres round body weight tyre flips sledge hammer work and farmers walk propa rocky type stuff and i look pretty good at 5,10 and i fight at 70kg and walf around at 73 to 75 altho people say i look more like a welter when i fight hollow bones i guess

[matt@westfightcompany]

come on guys your either a bodybulider or a fighter you cant be both it all depends on what you want most to be a good fighter or big muscle head in your tight top at the bar, to be honest i hardly do any weights my conditioning all centres round body weight tyre flips sledge hammer work and farmers walk propa rocky type stuff and i look pretty good at 5,10 and i fight at 70kg and walf around at 73 to 75 altho people say i look more like a welter when i fight hollow bones i guess

haha! Can't beat those hollow bones!

What I was getting at is that I enjoy both types of training. To be fair I think that everyone agrees that traditional 'bodybuilding' is no use for fighting at all, strength training is a different matter as we've been saying, so you saying you're either a bodybuilder or a fighter is fair enough, but that doesn't mean I can't keep strength training and fight training as well. My comment about seeing my hard work go to waste was more concerned with losing what I considered to be a reasonable level of strength to now an average level, but that's been my tradeoff for improving my conditioning, I couldn't spend as much time lifting.

I agree on your concentration on conditioning, but clearly you're fully commited to fighting. However, I would imagine (never done them myself) working tyre flips is similar to dead lifting with a press on the end (depending on the size of the tyre) and farmers walks also involve shifting a fair bit of weight, so you're still improving your strength in these areas just not with 'traditional' weights. Sounds like good training though. I just got a sledgehammer and tyre (smaller for this, too light to flip!) for conditioning myself.

At the moment I'm not good enough to fight so I'll keep working that side while bringing my strength up and improving my conditioning, just trying to find a decent balance between them for when I am ready. If my strength keeps dropping off like it is I'll be weak as a kitten six months!