Pros and cons of a separate female MMA section

[Rosi]

Since a few people have suggested that having a separate female MMA subforum is a bad idea as it gives the impression of "segregating" male and female MMA, thought i'd see what the consensus is here.

As i see it there are arguments in both directions. The obvious ones that spring to mind:

Pros: threads about female MMA don't disappear off the radar after a couple of posts, so it's easier to get a discussion going; it means that there's a constant female MMA presence on the board - for example, if a woman who was new to MMA looked at the main cagewarriors forum, most days they might not see anything at all about female MMA, a separate forum gives an obvious place to look for people who are interested

Cons: appears to "segregate" male and female MMA; separate forum may get fewer views from members

Maybe one possible solution is to post topical or newsworthy items on the main forum, and maybe to move them to the female MMA subforum after they drop off the top five pages (or would this be confusing?). Then there's also room here for more in depth or ongoing discussion of female MMA related topics.

Thoughts, people? :)

[David Swann]

I am all for it Rosi- You are the minority and threads do get lost, so it would be a lot easier to have a female based sub forum this may attract more women if they could see it as being taken seriously and activly disscussed on a credited forum such as this.

[Musha Shugyo]

I am all for it Rosi- You are the minority and threads do get lost, so it would be a lot easier to have a female based sub forum this may attract more women if they could see it as being taken seriously and activly disscussed on a credited forum such as this.

x2. Also,it may give us guys a chance to read directly about the issues female fighters face that we may not know much about....hear it directly from their own perspectives e.g. when people post more interviews,etc.That way promoters and those involved in the sport,...mostly male,....can make the necessary developments for them (as they are for male fighters) as the sport grows.

I,for one, would hope to see more of the female KckBx/Mt fighters venturing into MMA.They may well come to this section of the forum for their information,if it contains articles,interviews,technique vids and typical forum discussions and posted vids,etc from female perspectives?

[boromma]

It can only be a good thing, it gives more exposure for the ladies here on the forum, it will promote discussion about female mma that may not have happened otherwise and gives people that are interested somewhere specific to look for female mma related information.

Before this sub section exsisted, I only really knew of 2 or 3 female fighters... I know of a few more now and the topic has engaged me enough for me to ask about it going mainstream.

[Musha Shugyo]

Yeah,man. 'Cos i don't see why there wouldn't be female fight teams with female fight coaches for the various areas that make up MMA in the future (maybe there are already,i don't know)....some women may get into the sport in a smoother transition that way.

Maybe more women would give training MMA a shot if they had somewhere they could go and try it out that was a women's class? Even just for fitness at an established gym?

[donna]

as long as it is moderated properly can do no harm, but dont feel it will be used much the old one never was as we are all happy enough to put it on the main forum (and also we have fff)

[tanswell]

:p

Ha Ha ... Rosi seems to have me in Kangergoo court.

[ddale]

Thoughts, people? :)

I wouldn't do it, most people wont make the effort to view both forums, if you split you'll loose a lot of audience for those threads IMHO.

[Augustus Gloop]

I wouldn't do it, most people wont make the effort to view both forums, if you split you'll loose a lot of audience for those threads IMHO.
separating it will turn it into a minority interest forum visited only by those already interested - if you see what i mean

it makes more sense to me to encourage female mma by actively posting in the main forum (although to be honest most interesting threads disappear within a few days due to the crap troll posts on the pro mma forum)

[Rosi]

:p

Ha Ha ... Rosi seems to have me in Kangergoo court.

lol.... not at all.... i can see arguments both ways, and wanted to see what everyone else thought, that's all. I think it's good to discuss these things :)

I'm still thinking that a good solution may be to post topical female MMA stuff on the main forum, and then move the threads to this section once they drop off the top few pages (I'll volunteer to do it if need be). That seems to give the best of both worlds.

[Femme-ma]

I'm still thinking that a good solution may be to post topical female MMA stuff on the main forum, and then move the threads to this section once they drop off the top few pages (I'll volunteer to do it if need be). That seems to give the best of both worlds.

I think that's a great idea.

I'm tempted to ask for extra moderation for inappropriate posts too. Purely because I get bored of the "Marks out of ten, I'd give her one" comments that can crop up on female mma threads. Than again, I think over moderating sucks too so I'm probably talking rubbish.

[DianeB]

On another forum, any posts that are specifically put into the female section are automatically also seen in the main forum as well. Seems to work on that site. Don't know if it can be done here?

[fightingfan]

I think it's a good idea as on Sherdog (:rolleyes: ) the point has already been raised about the lack of appreciation for any kind of female contribution to sport.

[Tez]

I think it's a good idea to have a separate female forum, it shows people that there are women who do MMA. I have come across so many people at shows who have been surprised that there are women who train MMA never mind fight! The arguments against having a separate forum you can use for any of the sub forums, but they manage quite nicely.
Augustus Gloop is right when he says so many threads are being destroyed by trolling, some of it vicious rather than funny but I think people who can't be bothered with female MMA will ignore threads about it wherever they are.

[caledonianprint]

probably best keeping it combined, although this is difficult as female mma may not then get the attention it deserves.

something i have never really watched, but believe it deserves respect as the combatants train as hard as the guys.

[ReaperBabe]

On another forum, any posts that are specifically put into the female section are automatically also seen in the main forum as well. Seems to work on that site. Don't know if it can be done here?

Sounds like an ideal solution, if possible. For as much as I like the idea of a sub forum, reality is it doesn't get the same number of readers/posters.

In nearly a year since I've joined this forum, I've seen a positive change of attitude towards females training/fighting in the sport :)

[ReD_mIst]

Problem is, if you keep things segregated, then you are making a statement about female MMA being different. The off shoot is that you may not gain the fans and respect that you believe you deserve.

It's is also a form of sexisim. If you have to have a female sub forum, then you should in turn have a male only forum and a homosexual forum.

In a combined forum, even someone as sexist as me might start to respect female fighters.

[Godders]

Id be quite happy to let Femme-ma and rosi moderate this forum.

PM me if you want it

[Tez]

Problem is, if you keep things segregated, then you are making a statement about female MMA being different. The off shoot is that you may not gain the fans and respect that you believe you deserve.

It's is also a form of sexisim. If you have to have a female sub forum, then you should in turn have a male only forum and a homosexual forum.

In a combined forum, even someone as sexist as me might start to respect female fighters.

I understand and agree with what you're saying but the problem is that the female forum gets people posting stuff saying things that if it were in the workplace would be called harrassment and sexist which would get the writers suspended or sacked. If women call them on their comments they are told they have no sense of humour,can't take a joke etc.I think removing the type of post Femme suggested would actually be legally a good idea. It wouldn't be over moderating but would keep the forum as serious as it could be with us lot on it!

[ReD_mIst]

What is the objetive of the female forum?

Is it somehwere for people involved in female MMA to chat and discuss things they are interested in or is it an attempt to get female MMA in the mainstream of MMA and try to attract people like me, who isn't interested in female MMA

[ReaperBabe]

What is the objetive of the female forum?

Is it somehwere for people involved in female MMA to chat and discuss things they are interested in or is it an attempt to get female MMA in the mainstream of MMA and try to attract people like me, who isn't interested in female MMA

What did YOU think it was? Raising the profile of female athlets? Discuss suitable equipment? Or, god forbid, have an opinion on MMA related subjects....?

Don't be so silly! The sole objective of a female sub forum on an MMA forum is, of course, to discuss knitting techniques, periods, makes of thrush tablets and nappies...

[DianeB]

What is the objetive of the female forum?

Is it somehwere for people involved in female MMA to chat and discuss things they are interested in or is it an attempt to get female MMA in the mainstream of MMA and try to attract people like me, who isn't interested in female MMA

IMO it's mostly a place for people like me, who want to find out about other female fighters. It's a forum that I imagine all female posters will look at for information that may be lost in the main forums. It's a forum promoters can go to and find possible female fighters more easily for their shows

I don't see the female forum as a place to attract people like you. It's a bonus if it does :D .

[ReD_mIst]

What did YOU think it was? Raising the profile of female athlets? Discuss suitable equipment? Or, god forbid, have an opinion on MMA related subjects....?

Don't be so silly! The sole objective of a female sub forum on an MMA forum is, of course, to discuss knitting techniques, periods, makes of thrush tablets and nappies...

Stupid response. It's a response like that that holds back the acceptance of female MMA to the general MMA community.

[ReD_mIst]

IMO it's mostly a place for people like me, who want to find out about other female fighters. It's a forum that I imagine all female posters will look at for information that may be lost in the main forums. It's a forum promoters can go to and find possible female fighters more easily for their shows

I don't see the female forum as a place to attract people like you. It's a bonus if it does :D .

Thanks Di, sensible response.

I think as a source of information for people who want to get info relevant to female MMA, then a seperate sub-forum is suitable. So it's worthwhile keeping it going and it may indeed attract new fans.

If the goal is to get new fans and respect from MMA fans in general, then I think there has to be a crossover from the general MMA forums.

There is a valid reason to keep the female MMA sub-forum in place and maybe start posting more pieces of key female MMA information in the general MMA forums

Good luck with it.... maybe one day I'll even change my opinion on female MMA :D

[ReaperBabe]

Stupid response. It's a response like that that holds back the acceptance of female MMA to the general MMA community.

We are truly blessed and honoured by your wisdom and acceptance...

I'm so glad I can still read into sarcasm.

[ReD_mIst]

I'm not being sarcastic.

I thought that as I have some respect for Di and Rosi, I would post my views. I'm the kind of person that you could do with convincing as I don't like female MMA (boxing, Muay Thai, etc) and if you can convince people like me then the female side of the sport grows, more female fighters, more money, more respect, etc.

Clearly you can't see that though and thats fine. As I said, I don't like the female version of the sport, so I'm not bothered if it grows or not

[ReaperBabe]

Thanks Di, sensible response.

I think as a source of information for people who want to get info relevant to female MMA, then a seperate sub-forum is suitable. So it's worthwhile keeping it going and it may indeed attract new fans.

If the goal is to get new fans and respect from MMA fans in general, then I think there has to be a crossover from the general MMA forums.

There is a valid reason to keep the female MMA sub-forum in place and maybe start posting more pieces of key female MMA information in the general MMA forums

Good luck with it.... maybe one day I'll even change my opinion on female MMA :D

You answered your own question right there. And I'm actually quite pleased you think that way.

I think maybe, just maybe, you're a little bit bothered and genuinely interested. Otherwise you wouldn't have posted on the thread. Come on give in and admit you like female MMA :)

[donna]

What did YOU think it was? Raising the profile of female athlets? Discuss suitable equipment? Or, god forbid, have an opinion on MMA related subjects....?

Don't be so silly! The sole objective of a female sub forum on an MMA forum is, of course, to discuss knitting techniques, periods, makes of thrush tablets and nappies...

crap post hun!! not really helpful to play into the hands of anti-female mmaers like this.:confused:

[ReD_mIst]

crap post hun!! not really helpful to play into the hands of anti-female mmaers like this.:confused:

Thats what I thought.

I think people know my stance on female combat sports, Reaperbabe kind of hit, I am interested, I am happy to be converted to a female MMA fan.... as yet, I've not seen anything that interests me.

I now have a daughter, so I really really want to like female MMA....!

[Femme-ma]

I now have a daughter, so I really really want to like female MMA....!

Well, have you taken her training yet?

I like the female forum. It saves me having to sift through which talentless nobody is going to face off against another talentless nobody in the main forum to read about subjects which interest me.

[boxingbrit]

lol @ Aaron taking the little one training.

I love grappling girls.

[Femme-ma]

lol @ Aaron taking the little one training.



Mine was learning armbars at 5 weeks. Not sure he's quite got the hang of it yet though!

*walks away from the grappling girls conversation*

[ReD_mIst]

Well, have you taken her training yet?

No, but she has fretted her first string on the guitar :)


It saves me having to sift through which talentless nobody is going to face off against another talentless nobody in the main forum to read about subjects which interest me.

Like which taletless female nobody is fighting which talentless female nobody... for umpteenth time!

[ReD_mIst]

lol @ Aaron taking the little one training.

I love grappling girls.

My daughter is never coming to Quannum... there is no way I am risking her going out with a young Mr. Butlin!

[ReaperBabe]

Thanks for all the lovely comments :)

I can deffo feel the love in the female forum already, let's keep it up ladies!

[Femme-ma]

No, but she has fretted her first string on the guitar :)



Like which taletless female nobody is fighting which talentless female nobody... for umpteenth time!

Sweet. :)

See... a valid reason for this forum: you don't have to wade through the chaffe. Plus you get your own podium for creating stimulating debate. :p

[Tez]

[QUOTE=ReD_mIst;132438
Like which taletless female nobody is fighting which talentless female nobody... for umpteenth time![/QUOTE]

Okay assuming you're not winding people up lol, why do you say this? What are your objections to female MMA? Serious discussion please.
Is it the fact it's women fighting or do you think the standard of womens fighting is poor? If it's the former it's a personal preference I think and I can't see much changing your mind but if it's the latter reason what can be done to improve female MMA? mens MMA had to start somewhere and I think women as with a lot of sports are a few years behind the men but what can be done to get the women standards up if it's perceived to be that poor? As I've said before, I've seen plenty of poor male fighters should we to be fair also be having a go at poor standards of male fighters?

[boxingbrit]

My daughter is never coming to Quannum... there is no way I am risking her going out with a young Mr. Butlin!

Callum is undercover, he doesn't have my last name;)

[ReaperBabe]

As I've said before, I've seen plenty of poor male fighters should we to be fair also be having a go at poor standards of male fighters?

How dare you Mum?? Know your place! :D (to make this perfectly clear, Im being hugely sarcastic here)

(btw I'm writting you a nice long letter next week, have loads of time on my hands :) )

[Tez]

How dare you Mum?? Know your place! :D

(btw I'm writting you a nice long letter next week, have loads of time on my hands :) )

LOL! Well if people are going to criticise they should make it constructive!
Look forward to letter, i need cheering up, stress levels high at the moment!

[ReaperBabe]

((((((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))))))

[ReD_mIst]

Talent pool.

Lets say the ratio of female fighters to make fighters is 10/1 (it's actually far more than than that 100/1+), Lets say that on average 50% of fighters aren't up to scratch (again an estimate, the figure could be more or less). That means that for every 5 decent male fighters there's only 1 female fighter of the same standard... which isn't enough. So what happens is the bar of acceptable standard drops. So now we say on 20% of female fighters aren't good enough. so now we have a decent number of female fighters, but the standard has dropped.

I have seen a few female fights, I have yet to see one that really impressed me

[boxingbrit]

I was really impressed by Rosi on Night of Champions

[Tez]

Talent pool.

Lets say the ratio of female fighters to make fighters is 10/1 (it's actually far more than than that 100/1+), Lets say that on average 50% of fighters aren't up to scratch (again an estimate, the figure could be more or less). That means that for every 5 decent male fighters there's only 1 female fighter of the same standard... which isn't enough. So what happens is the bar of acceptable standard drops. So now we say on 20% of female fighters aren't good enough. so now we have a decent number of female fighters, but the standard has dropped.

I have seen a few female fights, I have yet to see one that really impressed me

So how do we rectify this? How do we get enough females interested enough to train and fight? I refuse to believe that women don't want to fight as there are a great many female kickboxers, full contact karate fighters ( yes it's still going despite what people think) and judo players, BJJ'ers etc.
The perception that 'cagefighting' is for men only really needs to change, not just to encourage women in but to be taken seriously as a sport by the general public which is what we all hope will happen. Whether it will or not is a whole other argument!
People who know me and my dirty mind will know I'm not in the least prudish but I despair when the only females at a show are the ring girls who are acting as if it's a lap dancing club, it's something that really has to be addressed again if MMA is to be taken seriously as a sport and not a spectacle. Guy's I'm sorry but there's a time and place. Sexy ring girls fine but not strippers. Shows need an air of seriousness, professionalism about them.
Perhaps when shows all have that professionism women may be encouraged to cross the divide from single MA to MMA.
How many clubs actively encourage women to join and actively train them? How many clubs are female friendly? Are men threatened by training alongside women or are they adult enough to see a fellow martial artist not the gender?

[ReD_mIst]

Actually I don't think there are a great many female kickboxers or boxers, the ratio in kickboxing/Muay Thai is probably similar to MMA and the ratio in boxing is probably even worse as there are thousands of boxers and very few female ones.

I don't remember ever seeing an Amateur boxing show with a female bout on it?

As for training, I think I have trained with maybe 4-5 women in the last 17 years of martial arts... I couldn't even begin to count the number of blokes. Maybe it should just be accepted that less women are interested, therefore less fighters and the only may to make the number up in the talent pool is to lower the bar.... which in turn makes for an inferior product.

[ReD_mIst]

I was really impressed by Rosi on Night of Champions

I didn't wathc much of the fight, although I did see her performance on Bodog (not live, I was busy) and thought that she looked good against Damm

[Tez]

Actually I don't think there are a great many female kickboxers or boxers, the ratio in kickboxing/Muay Thai is probably similar to MMA and the ratio in boxing is probably even worse as there are thousands of boxers and very few female ones.

I don't remember ever seeing an Amateur boxing show with a female bout on it?

As for training, I think I have trained with maybe 4-5 women in the last 17 years of martial arts... I couldn't even begin to count the number of blokes. Maybe it should just be accepted that less women are interested, therefore less fighters and the only may to make the number up in the talent pool is to lower the bar.... which in turn makes for an inferior product.

Positive discrimination? Doesn't do anyone any good.
The army has female amateur boxers. I believe the Signals have the best ones at the moment.
There may be numerically more male fighters but it doesn't actually make them of any better standard, just means there's more of them lol! it could be that the women are talented but the coaching isn't lol!

[ReD_mIst]

There may be numerically more male fighters but it doesn't actually make them of any better standard, just means there's more of them lol! it could be that the women are talented but the coaching isn't lol!

I agree, but as I explained before... if we assume that only 50% of fighters (regardless of sex) are any good, it still means there are more good male fighters than female fighters. Therefore to get more female bouts on a promotion, you have to accept that the bar of acceptability has to be lowered, this means a recuced quality.

[dirty dick]

Plenty of birds do judo

[Alex Gold]

I hear 'wing control' is big in avian judo....

[ReD_mIst]

Plenty of birds do judo


"Plenty"?

What sort of ratio to men, do you think?

[Rosi]

I think people know my stance on female combat sports, Reaperbabe kind of hit, I am interested, I am happy to be converted to a female MMA fan.... as yet, I've not seen anything that interests me.

I now have a daughter, so I really really want to like female MMA....!

Line nicely dangled, Aaron ;) I dunno about anyone else though, but i'm not really much of an evangelist. I enjoy what i do and i try to do it as well as i can. But at the end of the day, everyone's entitled to their opinion and i'm not really interested in "selling" female MMA to people who don't like it, any more than i'll try and sell MMA as a whole to those who disapprove of combat sports.

You make some valid points about the size of the talent pool - something i've found a frequent source of frustration. But it's self-reinforcing process - the more female MMA is out there to be seen, the more women will be attracted to the sport, and the bigger the talent pool will become.

As for Chatfield junior - how you rate the current state of women's MMA isn't really here nor there. As long as you agree with it in principle, it would be perfectly consistent to support it in continuing to grow, develop and to get closer to it's potential. Just in time for when your daughter gets a bit older :)

[rob.sdcs]

How many clubs actively encourage women to join and actively train them? How many clubs are female friendly? Are men threatened by training alongside women or are they adult enough to see a fellow martial artist not the gender?

Tez i think there are several different points in this whole debate. I think that there is a huge difference between wanting to train mma and wanting to fight mma. Both should be available but the mindset between male/female i believe is different. Guys have the whole ego i'm the hardest trip whereas not so much in the female. Could be a reason more guys tend to get into the cage along with the old 'i'm a cage fighter' quote.

As far as training goes i trained with Donna on a regular basis in mma as did all the rest of the guys at the club. Now rolling and technique based lessons were fine but when we were striking training changed. I don't think most guys are happy hitting a female whether training on not. Believe it or not the guys weren't happy to punch Donna although she would punch back. Whether thats a male chauvinistic thing or just being chivalrous i don't know but i hope it is the latter.

As far as fighting goes if its a good fight then it really doesn't matter what gender the participants are. I think that female mma fights are more technical in there nature maybe because womens mma is less mainstream so they compete in more sub grappling tourneys so that side comes through more, just my opinion though.

I'm certainly not against female mma as i trained with Donna on a regular basis and she has gained a lot from her training and all power to her. also rolled with femme 'little terrier' ma who again had no problems with rolling with.

But in todays ultra pc country female mma will never hold the same level as male for any number of reasons discussed in here over time. But no doubt as long as there is a cage warriors forum this will come up regularly, and maybe with enough exposure the level of female mma will increase along with the number of fighters. maybe cage rage will act as a catalyst and get the ball rolling only time will tell.

just my 2 pence worth.