Squats and Deadlifts

[fingercuffs]

This is a twofold question

First off, squats. I imagine that there are many schools of thought on this one, but when performing a squat how far should you go down. I have seen some guys going butt to heels, and I have seen some guys go for a much smaller range of movement.
Which one do you prefer?



Second one, deadlifts. When carrying out a deadlift the grip is often the limiting factor. Therefore when you're on your work set(s), is it considered cheating to briefly set the bar down between the reps to adjust grip? Or possibly even a one - two second rest?

Thanks

[Alex Gold]

This is a twofold question

First off, squats. I imagine that there are many schools of thought on this one, but when performing a squat how far should you go down. I have seen some guys going butt to heels, and I have seen some guys go for a much smaller range of movement.
Which one do you prefer?

It depends. Who we are talking about, at what stage of development, at which part of the training cycle, strength levels in different ranges of motion, mobility, footwear, squat style, lever lengths etc. will all lead to a different situation. The only true answer is:

If the person is a powerlifter, they have to go as far as they are required to go in their federation to ensure a legal lift. If not, 'it depends'.



Second one, deadlifts. When carrying out a deadlift the grip is often the limiting factor. Therefore when you're on your work set(s), is it considered cheating to briefly set the bar down between the reps to adjust grip? Or possibly even a one - two second rest?

Thanks
Not neccesarily, but grip shouldn't be a limiting factor. Work on grip until it isn't, but resetting isn't the end of the world. At least it will stop people bouncing deadlifts off the floor.

[Hywel Teague]

have a look at the archives on www.stronglifts.com, Medhi has got some interesting opinions

[tdys]

Been reading Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength (as I'm a complete novice) but it is recommended on the site Hywel mentions above and by Crossfit.

He says that "any squat that is not deep is a partial squat, and partial squats stress the knee and quadriceps without stressing the glutes and the hamstrings". For Rippetoe, the full squat is when the "anterior surface of the thigh at the hip must be lower than the top of the knees."

No doubt you can lift more using a partial squat but it seems his point is that if you want to develop functional strength (not just for weightlifting comps) then do full squats.

Excellent book. I'd fully recommend it.

[fingercuffs]

Thanks guys I appreciate the replies.

[Wiegieboard]

Squats

When I squat. I always go full Range Of Movement. I go down to the point where my leg position is still supported by the tension in the muscle. If you go any farther down and rest on your haunches, you can risk popping some knee ligament and tendons. Always support the weight with your own strength.

Deadlifts

If you do any other weights, try wrapping foam around the bar so that youre gripping something with a larger circumferance, this'll build up your grip better. Also, Sometimes peoples grip fails because they grip harder than they have to. Chalk up your hands by rubbing the lifting chalk along the inside of your thumb and over the pads just below your fingers and up your fingers also. Rub your hands together and reapeat the process two more times. Your hands should be sufficiently chalked by now and you will probably find that you wont have to grip as hard, thus prolonging the time that you can grip for.

If you still have trouble, you can use lifting straps but I wouldnt reccommend this as you get a dendancy where people then rely on the straps. Just like when they wear gloves, they become dependant on it and when they try to use their strength in the real world. Their girl hands shred to bits.

[tyciol]

I think going all the way down and doing partials are both valuable. Lighter weights with higher RoM, I think are more prone to higher reps and stuff, and are for developing flexibility and balance in the muscles, awareness and balance.

Partial RoM allows higher weight, more compression on your bones to make them stronger, and allows more microloading since it's higher weights. It is more specific to full extension of the leg which is where you tend to be when you're delivering or absorbing impacts.

I'd imagine experts get a feel for switching between the two.

[Cheets]

I accept that squats cant be taught over the net - but for the majority of people a 90 degree bend in the knee or thighs parallel to floor is a very good idea - further range reaps no further benefit for most people - the golden rule is never put knees over toes (if looking from a side-view) if thats broken its just a matter of time before injury sets in

[Cheets]

On the subject of deadlifts and grip - I personally would find someone suitable to show you how to deadlift properly.

One the subject of grip and lifting - anyone who harps on about the "if you cant grip it dont lift it" has either a superhuman grip or is just plain rubbish at deadlifting for reps!!

My advice is for sets of deadlift - use straps when your grip starts to fail simple as that - the pausing isn't a bad idea but when grip starts to fail horrible things start to happen to your posture in attempt to offset the bars weight - so the brief 'kissing' of the floor is fine - when people are aiming for increased speed/power they often pause using to reset their posture so if you use the pause to do sort your posture out - great stuff.

[Cheets]

Squats

If you still have trouble, you can use lifting straps but I wouldnt reccommend this as you get a dendancy where people then rely on the straps. Just like when they wear gloves, they become dependant on it and when they try to use their strength in the real world. Their girl hands shred to bits.

I assume your talking about gloves and not straps with the hand thing - cos lifting straps wreck your hands at first - and nothing apart from trying to make glass from sand bothers em after a while :D

[Neil]

Olympic Weightlifting vs Powerlifting Squat

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1736931

Also nothing wrong with using gloves/wrist support to prevent callusses from pulling exercises like deadlifts, last thing you would want is missed training time from ripped callusses.

[tdys]

I accept that squats cant be taught over the net - but for the majority of people a 90 degree bend in the knee or thighs parallel to floor is a very good idea - further range reaps no further benefit for most people - the golden rule is never put knees over toes (if looking from a side-view) if thats broken its just a matter of time before injury sets in

The exact position of the knees is surely determined by a persons body shape - femur / tibia / trunk dimensions. This could leave your knees anywhere from directly over your toes to 3-4 inches in front of them at the bottom of the squat.

With millions of Olympic Weightlifters squatting way below parallel every training day, often 6 days a week, why are huge numbers of them (a) strong and (b) not under the care of an orthopaedic surgeon?

The golden rules of the bottom position (whatever body shape) are:
1. Bar is directly vertical to the middle of the foot.
2. Feet are flat on the ground.
3. Thighs are perfectly parallel to the feet.
4. Spine is held rigid in lumbar and thoracic extension.

This will mean, for some, that their knees must be over their toes.

Additionally, aren't the benefits (for everyone) of a full squat the recruitment of the hamstrings and glutes? Wouldn't most athletes want to reap these benefits?

[Beev]

I definitely think you should do a full range of motion for squatting. I dont see the point of partials, yeah you can use more weight, but you probably wont be able to handle that weight at the bottom of the squat, so why bother! People wouldnt dream of adding far more weight to a bench press and then pressing the bar back up when its 6 inches away from their chest! So why limit the ROM on the squat to add more weight? Doesnt make sense to me!

As far as grip being a limiting factor on deadlifts, ive never actually seen that. Id seriously consider checking your form on the lift. If it really is your grip affecting your deadlift, your grip and forearm strength isnt really that hard to develop! Try spending a few weeks doing heavy farmers walks. try matching the load you deadlift, say for example, you deadlift 100kg (not heavy I know), for x amount of reps, try lifting a pair of 50kg dumbells, and walk as far as you can with them. As a starting point, walk 10 meters for every rep you would normally perform. Then build it up from there. Your grip will catch up in no time.

Yours,
Beev

[kyle_w]

Squats and Bench press should always be a full range of motion.

[boxingbrit]

I agree. Guys in our gym rack up the smith machine and then do about 4 inches of motion. Always amusing!!

[Cheets]

The exact position of the knees is surely determined by a persons body shape - femur / tibia / trunk dimensions. This could leave your knees anywhere from directly over your toes to 3-4 inches in front of them at the bottom of the squat.

With millions of Olympic Weightlifters squatting way below parallel every training day, often 6 days a week, why are huge numbers of them (a) strong and (b) not under the care of an orthopaedic surgeon?

The golden rules of the bottom position (whatever body shape) are:
1. Bar is directly vertical to the middle of the foot.
2. Feet are flat on the ground.
3. Thighs are perfectly parallel to the feet.
4. Spine is held rigid in lumbar and thoracic extension.

This will mean, for some, that their knees must be over their toes.

Additionally, aren't the benefits (for everyone) of a full squat the recruitment of the hamstrings and glutes? Wouldn't most athletes want to reap these benefits?

My post wasn't in relation to Olympic weightlifters i said at the start "for the majority of us" - When Olympic lifters squat they squat dont need to send their knees much over toes due to their technique and flexibility at the hip and ankle - and the vast majority of em are under orthopaedic surgeons by the way!!

The reason i say no knees over the toes isn't just in relation to knee safety but it ensures better form at the hips, lower back and ankles.

Im not sure where you got the lumbar and thoracic extension thing from but that is really is a terrible idea and for most people pretty impossible - when you squat you do it with a flat lumbar spine i.e. "neutral" another reason why i dont like full squats unless they've been taught and built up to it and suffcient pelvic stability - which the vast majority dont have.

As for the benefits of full squats compared to a 90 degree sqaut - the lower range is usually the result of other things besides the hams and glutes.

[tdys]

I'm not claiming to be an expert (anything but!) - my list of points come from: Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe, which is excellently written, and it seems to me to be full of common sense.
http://www.pullum-sports.co.uk/books-and-magazines/books/starting-strength-basic-barbell-training-by-mark-rippetoe-lon-kilgore/prod_472.html
He's absolutely adamant that knee damage is not caused by full squats or about the distance that the knees travel over the toes but that a partial squat puts far more pressure on the knees.

If the majority of olypic weightlifters are under an orthopaedic surgeon, then there must be a hell of a lot of business for them with over 1million practising olympic weightlifters in China alone!

I used the example of olympic weightlifters only in relation to the safety of the full squat. My real point is that for any athlete wishing to gain the full benefits of the squat, then if they only do one type of squat they should be dong full squats i.e. below 90 degrees. They should also build up to it as you say - using appropraite weight and working on technique, rather than lifting as much as possible and going through half the range of motion.

[Sports-Select.co.uk]

On the subject of deadlifts and grip - I personally would find someone suitable to show you how to deadlift properly.

One the subject of grip and lifting - anyone who harps on about the "if you cant grip it dont lift it" has either a superhuman grip or is just plain rubbish at deadlifting for reps!!

My advice is for sets of deadlift - use straps when your grip starts to fail simple as that - the pausing isn't a bad idea but when grip starts to fail horrible things start to happen to your posture in attempt to offset the bars weight - so the brief 'kissing' of the floor is fine - when people are aiming for increased speed/power they often pause using to reset their posture so if you use the pause to do sort your posture out - great stuff.

What are you talking about Willis? World champion powerlifters don't use straps, there should never be any need for straps.

Only use straps if you are a vagina.

[Neil]

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/lynx/grips.html

Lynx grips-Havn't tried them yet but they prevent callusses and don't intefer with your grip. I think athletes in sports other than powerlifting/weightlifting would rather be vaginas than deal with callusses and risk missed training time due to ripped callusses. Also olympic weightlifters use straps in their workout towards the end as grip is not a factor for them-your not going to lose your grip on 1 rep, so why do they need to train their grip?

Also interesting point on lumbar spine. I could straight-leg-deadlift perfectly but couldn't maintain an arch in my lumbar spine-it would go straight to neutral. The lifters I was working with said I was fine, but I was always striving to have an extended arch in my lower back which I never achieved. But I also never hurt myself/or felt pain/pulled anything with having a neutral lumbar. So I geuss as long as its neutral it doesn't matter.

[Cheets]

What are you talking about Willis? World champion powerlifters don't use straps, there should never be any need for straps.

Only use straps if you are a vagina.

Yep for a ONE-REP MAX get the same champions to start lifting 70% 1RM for reps and guess what? They use straps!!

If your grip is stronger than your quads, glutes and lower back - then you need to sort training out!! That or your nemesis goes by the name of Bluto, your missus is called olive and you eat spinach just as it the sh*t hits the fan

[Cheets]

I'm not claiming to be an expert (anything but!) - my list of points come from: Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe, which is excellently written, and it seems to me to be full of common sense.
http://www.pullum-sports.co.uk/books-and-magazines/books/starting-strength-basic-barbell-training-by-mark-rippetoe-lon-kilgore/prod_472.html
He's absolutely adamant that knee damage is not caused by full squats or about the distance that the knees travel over the toes but that a partial squat puts far more pressure on the knees.

If the majority of olypic weightlifters are under an orthopaedic surgeon, then there must be a hell of a lot of business for them with over 1million practising olympic weightlifters in China alone!

I used the example of olympic weightlifters only in relation to the safety of the full squat. My real point is that for any athlete wishing to gain the full benefits of the squat, then if they only do one type of squat they should be dong full squats i.e. below 90 degrees. They should also build up to it as you say - using appropraite weight and working on technique, rather than lifting as much as possible and going through half the range of motion.

My main point that I admit I could've been clearer about is that if your gonna squat all the way - you need someone who knows to show you - plus its not the right choice for everybody - The bit about the range not being damaging is quite correct - but thats in people who are able to do it well!!

and if the same book tells you to maintain thoracic extension and lumbar extension then Id think twice before paying much more attention to that book

Just my opinion

[Jay]

If your grip is stronger than your quads, glutes and lower back - then you need to sort training out!!

no-one sid your grip needs to be 'stronger' than your quads etc, these muscles are going through a range of movement whereas the grip is simply holding the bar, it's hardly the same thing is it? in an ideal world, don't use straps.

[Cheets]

no-one sid your grip needs to be 'stronger' than your quads etc, these muscles are going through a range of movement whereas the grip is simply holding the bar, it's hardly the same thing is it? in an ideal world, don't use straps.

No your right - i see it clearly now!! the muscles of the forearm and intrinsic muscles of the hands should still be able to hold onto a weight for a greater length of time than the entire muscles of the lower body and torso can continually lift it for - sorry my mistake...

My personal opinion is only use straps on the later sets when your grip starts to fail - and as Ive said before - if your quads, glutes, lower back etc fatigue first i.e. they have a lower strength-endurance capacity than the muscles of your forearm and hand then you need to sort your training out!!

[Sports-Select.co.uk]

No your right - i see it clearly now!! the muscles of the forearm and intrinsic muscles of the hands should still be able to hold onto a weight for a greater length of time than the entire muscles of the lower body and torso can continually lift it for - sorry my mistake :D

My personal opinion is only use straps on the later sets when your grip starts to fail - and if your quads, glutes, lower back etc tire before your grip does then you need to sort your training out.

Not only should they, they actually can. Do Chinups till failure, can you still hang on the bar even though you can't pull yourself up?

Gripping the bar will also recruit more muscle fibers.

FFS is anyone here talking about deadlifts over 250kg anyway?

Don't use straps. What possible argument could there be for using them?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkF_tHlJa_A&feature=related

1003lb I believe for reps, no straps. There is no excuse.

[Cheets]

Not only should they, they actually can. Do Chinups till failure, can you still hang on the bar even though you can't pull yourself up?

Gripping the bar will also recruit more muscle fibers.

FFS is anyone here talking about deadlifts over 250kg anyway?

Don't use straps. What possible argument could there be for using them?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkF_tHlJa_A&feature=related

1003lb I believe for reps, no straps. There is no excuse.


1003lb no strap? Im not talking about ONE REP MAX OR A SINGLE SET, Im talking about - MULTIPLE SETS which I think is the way most people train - see the bit where I put about strength-endurance? i.e. grip should fatigue before quads, glutes and lower back - Then I put a bit about using straps only when your grip starts to fail?

As for the chin-up quote - if your using chin-ups as a form of strength/power training then it isn't long before an athlete starts to use added weight (not that i personally favour this approach) when they do use added weight ---
i.e. When it becomes a weighted resistance exercise like the deadlift - guess what - people eventually need straps!!

Im only posting to try help the person who originally asked the question and anyone else in a similar position -

If you dont like straps then dont use em - but getting cocky about your reasoning is a pretty pathetic as its painfully obvious your a long way from understanding the full issue - as usual arrogance makes up ignorance - feel free to scour the internet or your book collection to post a tenuous ref to support your opinion....

[Cheets]

FFS is anyone here talking about deadlifts over 250kg anyway?

1003lb I believe for reps, no straps. There is no excuse.

Genius:D :D

[Sports-Select.co.uk]

1003lb no strap? Im not talking about ONE REP MAX - see the bit where I put about strength-endurance? i.e. grip should fatigue before quads, glutes and lower back -

As for the chin-up quote - if your using chin-ups as a form of strength/power training then it isn't long before an athlete starts to use added weight (not that i personally favour this approach) when they do use added weight ---
i.e. When it becomes a weighted resistance exercise like the deadlift - guess what - people eventually need straps!!

Im only posting to try help the person who originally asked the question and anyone else in a similar position -

If you dont like straps then dont use em - but getting cocky about your reasoning is a pretty pathetic as its painfully obvious your a long way from understanding the full issue - as usual arrogance makes up ignorance - feel free to scour the internet or your book collection to post a tenuous ref as to support your opinion....

He does a set of 5 rack pulls with that weight. Did you even watch the video?

So if it is possible to grip and lift that kind of weight for a set of 5, do you really think any of us "need" straps for our lifts?

If you have any additional points to make please post them. If you wish to insult me feel free to start a new thread.

Straps will do you no favours your grip can keep pace with your lifting strength so don't sacrafice it for no reason. Having a strong grip is also a useful thing to have in MMA/BJJ and opening jam jars to impress women.

Chalk might be a good addition.

Also if you are double overhanding you can use mixed grip if your grip starts to fail towards the end.

[Sports-Select.co.uk]

Some dicussion on deadlift grip problems.

http://www.powerliftinguk.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4713&highlight=straps

[daspecimen]

i've always squated arse to the floor, whether it was with weighted, kettlebelled or bodyweight.

now that i bench without a machine, i do that with the biggest ROM i can. It's much more beneficial in the long run.

Good discussion going on though

[Jay]

the bottom line is if you have to use straps then fair enough, but it won't be as beneficial to increasing your grip strength, which is something that is vital in mma and jiu jitsu etc.

[matt@westfightcompany]

I found that on the couple of occasions I used straps (forgot my chalk) to deadlift fairly heavy (190+) that it put me in a completely different position to that if I didn't use straps. I can get down behind the bar and feel a lot more comfortable without straps, I find them quite restrictive.

Also I find my form goes completely out of the window (probably because of the above) when using straps. I struggle to pull the bar backwards and feel like it's pulling me forwards.

I don't like them, but I do use them for barbell rowing movements when I don't use over/under grip.

[Cheets]

Fair point sports-select ___ straps or no straps - its your choice but the horrible postural changes I see due to a failing and inadequate grip is not worth it in my opinion and missing the entire point of the exercise - which leads me onto to the most important fact; A deadlift isn't an exercise used to train the grip is it? therefore I believe it should (to an extent) be eliminated so as to maximise the purpose of the exercise.

Apologies for insult- knee jerk reaction to what I felt was uninformed arrogance.

[Cheets]

the bottom line is if you have to use straps then fair enough, but it won't be as beneficial to increasing your grip strength, which is something that is vital in mma and jiu jitsu etc.

You dont deadlift to increase your grip.... Plus its a different type of grip strength

[Rosi]

Plus its a different type of grip strength

Say more...

[Jay]

You dont deadlift to increase your grip.... Plus its a different type of grip strength


no, it's not primary, but it's a postive side effect of deadlifting so why would you relinquish it just because you don't care to work at it?

anyway, different schools of thought. i don't care to continue it because i don't wanna lift with straps, fair enough if you do. i'd rather work at my grip and have it all up to speed than use straps just to eliminate grip out of the equation.

[Cheets]

Say more...

Different type - maybe a tad simplistic - sorry.

The grip used in a dealift will typically end up as a mid-range support grip when performing multiple reps over sets or a more of a 'crush' or even worse a hook grip when performing maximally - 1-3 rep max both of which have little carry over to sports.
My point was that isometric-support grip, as with any form of isometric training only produce gains in the angle in which it is trained in -thus doesn't hold a lot for the dynamic variation and angles needed in MMA.

Im not a huge fan of grip training and I believe MMA training itself will give you pretty much all the grip you need - My grip in the weight room improved as result of my MMA!! That was at a time when I was regularly doing 7 sets of 45sec farmers walks with 85kg dumbells!! (no straps!)

Straps have their place thats all but dont rely on them is all im saying, and when you talk to lifters, sprinters etc most people that deadlift without em dont like em beause they feel they dont get to use the stretch-shortening cycle or in some cases cheat the movement as much!!!

[kyle_w]

This is all great advice, thanks.

[Wiegieboard]

Only use straps if you are a vagina.

Made me lol dude.

In my opinion your forearms should be strong enough to cope with near any weight that you lift (strength endurace lifting could be excused) . Sure it gets sore when you're doing higher reps but with adequately chalked hands there should be no problem whatsoever. I've only seen straps and gloves used by nOObs to serious lifting because they haven't developed properly yet. I know that I don't use them when I chalk up properly and I've always considered my grip quite weak as I have small hands.

Then again, I've never deadlifted over 20 reps before and my usual range when I'm lifting is between 1 and 9 reps.

The reason that I lift always with full range or movement is because I lift to suppliment jiu jitsu and wrestling where often your body will be at full compression.

I've always thought that if you're having to use things to aid you, then your body isn't balanced correctly. Many might argue that powerlifters use suits, singlets etc. and I DO agree with wrapping knees past squats with 150kg just for safetys sake. But I don't wrestle with a compression suit and I use full explosive strength, so I don't lift weights with them either.

Bare in mind that this is MY opinion on things.

[Rosi]

Im not a huge fan of grip training and I believe MMA training itself will give you pretty much all the grip you need - My grip in the weight room improved as result of my MMA!! That was at a time when I was regularly doing 7 sets of 45sec farmers walks with 85kg dumbells!! (no straps!)

I see where you're coming from on that, and it makes sense on paper, but I have to say that my experience has been different. I've made pretty big improvements in my MMA specific grip from doing weight training (especially heavy deadlifts), but lose it if I stop lifting weights for a while - even if I'm still doing plenty of MMA.

[boxingbrit]

I am the same as Rosi. I also use the scaffolding bar instead of the olympic bar close to fight time as it is a similar thinckness to grabbing an arm.

[Cheets]

I am the same as Rosi. I also use the scaffolding bar instead of the olympic bar close to fight time as it is a similar thinckness to grabbing an arm.

Despite my opinions on grip training - the idea of a scaffolding bar is a great one

[Cheets]

So as wind drops out of the sails of the good ship 'strap or no strap' what do people think about weightbelts....:D

[Rosi]

So as wind drops out of the sails of the good ship 'strap or no strap' what do people think about weightbelts....:D

in general - no, no, no

essentially - why build strength in your legs to lift more than you can support with your back?

[boxingbrit]

I disagree, i think there is a place for belts when introducing people to squats/ deadlifts and when first increasing weight.

[Sports-Select.co.uk]

In principal no. What happens when you and your mate are hoisting a sofa/wardrobe etc. onto his roofrack and you don't have your lifting belt? Every other muscle is capable of the lift except your core. Like wise in the ring, cage or on the mat you won't be belted.

There might possibly be specific times when specific people might require them but I think it would be a very individual case.

[Cheets]

There might possibly be specific times when specific people might require them but I think it would be a very individual case.

I agree :)

[Cheets]

Although I started this bit of thread in jest - As Rosi carries a lot of respect on this board (and you sports-select) on the off-chance anyone's reading this thread and thinking of having a liberating 'belt burning' occasion -

Please do it gradually and phase the belt out slowly and lower your weights and build them back up again -

Belts provide the vast majority of their support in practice throught increasing ones sense of 'joint awarenes' known as proprioception so without it your postural awareness is reduced significantly so if phasing them out have a trusted training partner with you so they can observe and prompt you on your posture.

If you dont have this keep wearing your belt until such time where a training partner is present

Finally - increase your core-stability work

[Sports-Select.co.uk]

RE Proprioception. I would advise a different device for improving this. A wide semi rigid board or across or perhapse two thiner planks taped up the back would help you improve lifting form by providing feedback on spine curvature without providing additioanl support. Again however when these devices are done away with in the real world what hapens to your form?

"Over reliance on ergogenic devices such as lifting belts, hand grips, bandages for joints, special shoe inserts, wedges under the heels for squatting and elasticated training suits can modify the neuromuscular system to such an extent that efficient or safe training without them becomes difficult"

[Cheets]

Your wood down the back is innovative if nothing else :)

Just as an aside issue heel lifts and inserts should be prescribed by someone approp qualified -so if your reading this and thinking "I'll get me a pair of those lifting shoes" dont until you consult with someone qualified to assist you in your choice

Related to that - the worst things there are for squatting, deadlifting etc are air max as they support i.e. excacerbate any problems in foot position

[Rosi]

Although I started this bit of thread in jest - As Rosi carries a lot of respect on this board (and you sports-select) on the off-chance anyone's reading this thread and thinking of having a liberating 'belt burning' occasion -

Please do it gradually and phase the belt out slowly and lower your weights and build them back up again -

Belts provide the vast majority of their support in practice throught increasing ones sense of 'joint awarenes' known as proprioception so without it your postural awareness is reduced significantly so if phasing them out have a trusted training partner with you so they can observe and prompt you on your posture.

If you dont have this keep wearing your belt until such time where a training partner is present

Finally - increase your core-stability work

Absolutely :)

I'd also agree with SS that there may well be a case for using support belts with particular people at particular times (hence the "in general"). All I'd say is that it shouldn't become a routine thing that is taken for granted.

As for using them to introduce people to squats and deadlifts though - personally, I'd rather start off with less weight, and make sure they're getting correct form without relying on a weights belt. That way, the core muscles are built up alongside the leg muscles.

[Sports-Select.co.uk]

Your wood down the back is innovative if nothing else :)

Just as an aside issue heel lifts and inserts should be prescribed by someone approp qualified -so if your reading this and thinking "I'll get me a pair of those lifting shoes" dont until you consult with someone qualified to assist you in your choice

Related to that - the worst things there are for squatting, deadlifting etc are air max as they support i.e. excacerbate any problems in foot position

From what I can understand most of the benefit of the lifting belt in regards to proprioception is that it provides a straight line from which your body can tell it has deviated. Wood might not be the best choice though

[Cheets]

From what I can understand most of the benefit of the lifting belt in regards to proprioception is that it provides a straight line from which your body can tell it has deviated. Wood might not be the best choice though

Well the theory is sound for sure - some physios often tape the back in a x shoulder to opposite hip

The proprioception it provides is more in relation of the pelvic or rather lumbopelvic area - get that right and the rest follows nicely, not thats its important- just thought you may be interested....

[tdys]

Hopefully this won't be too controversial a return to this thread for me (a bit of healthy discussion never hurt anyone, though!).

As we've done straps and belts - how about footwear? I'm thinking of getting some proper weightlifting shoes. If the assembled wisdom subscribed to this thread doesn't think them a waste of time, where can I get some? All I can find are some £80 adidas ones. Any recommended sites / shoes that are a bit cheaper?

[Wiegieboard]

Lifting shoes can support your feet fantastically when you're lifting. they're good for a firm footing. 60 or 80 quid seems a bit steep though. I'd get some last seasons gear for much cheaper.

[Jay]

apparently it's throwing your money away.. i don't really know but i've read on a few lifting sites that the best shoes for it are converse or sambas, with hard flat bottoms. which are both 30quid or less by the way.

[matt@westfightcompany]

Terry O'Neill at my old gym used to squat 300+ in airmaxes!! Majority of the guys used flat bottom thin soled trainers like Jay mentioned, or the adidas, car racing style, ankle boot type.

If you can find some sale lifting shoes for similar money, probably worth the investment

[Cheets]

Terry O'Neill at my old gym used to squat 300+ in airmaxes!! Majority of the guys used flat bottom thin soled trainers like Jay mentioned, or the adidas, car racing style, ankle boot type.

If you can find some sale lifting shoes for similar money, probably worth the investment

Loads of people love airmaxes I admit but once you've seen your first pair burst when lifting - you change your footwear!!

[Cheets]

Hopefully this won't be too controversial a return to this thread for me (a bit of healthy discussion never hurt anyone, though!).

As we've done straps and belts - how about footwear? I'm thinking of getting some proper weightlifting shoes. If the assembled wisdom subscribed to this thread doesn't think them a waste of time, where can I get some? All I can find are some £80 adidas ones. Any recommended sites / shoes that are a bit cheaper?

Why do you actually want them? Not being pedantic just wondering as to your reasons - ankle support, heel-lift...

Just that a lot of people that buy em could have just bought a nice flat soled trainer and got a pair of off the peg orthotics/innersoles instead and get way better results- In my opinion the original style Vans are fantastic shoes to lift in

[tdys]

I mostly do my lifting at home and usually barefoot but when I do go to a gym I only have my running shoes. They're bouncy nike air style ones and I don't like lifting in them... so I was thinking if I got some weightlifting shoes I could wear them at the gym / at home. If I can buy some cheaper flat soled shoes with insoles or whatever, so much the better!

Thanks for the advice so far - can't find any sale or last seasons shoes (in fact can only find Adidas ones still), so a pair of Chuck Taylors maybe it is.

[Wiegieboard]

I personally use the slip ons with the flat rubber bottom. Don't cost much either. I used to lift in wrestling boots also.