How long?

[widge milward]

OK, i have never done a BJJ session in my life, but i am/was a decent grappler back in the days, how long would it take me to get my blue belt on average (none of that "as long as a piece of string" bollox!)

I know i could train with a Royce affiliate and go to a seminar and get a belt. but training wise how long would it take you reckon?

[Rob T]

How long have you been grappling for? Was it just nogi? What sort of level guys have you rolled with that you could hold your own?

[widge milward]

background in judo, wrestling and MMA.

training since i was 6 (am now 24) but i reckon ive took 4 years off in total.

trained and competed at a decent level in all 3.

[Rob T]

It won't take you long at all then I wouldn't imagine. Unless you have something crazy like being really crap with your guard (which I doubt).

I think most instructors would just be looking for loyalty and regular training if you've already got skill. This is assuming you would immediately be much better than all the white belts/most of the blues and probably giving purple and up a tough time.

[widge milward]

alright, so you reckon under a year? 6 months? for a blue? i read on the UG some dude got his purple or brown (cant remember) in 3 years.

Who are able to 'grade' students? i mean if i trained with Carl Fisher (example as his gym is close to me) would he be able to 'grade' me?

[Rob T]

BJJ basically has no official rules for anything (even comps vary) so who can promote isn't set in stone. The IBJFF have guidelines but I don't think even all their black belt instructors follow them.

Generally promotions will be done by a black belt unless there isn't one available. Carl can clarify himself but I would imagine what is done would be Carl would recommend people for promotion and the black belt he trains under would then make the final decision and award the belts.

You could definitely get a blue under 1 year or even 6 months with prior experience. I had never done any martial arts at all and got my blue in 8 months, purple in 2 years 2 months.

[widge milward]

Good stuff, thanks for all the help.

anyone else have opinions?

[bigreddog]

The rule of thumb I was given was - if you can tap out blue belts - you're a blue belt (not all the time, but not a one off freak event either)

Seems pretty sensible to me

[Josh Palmer]

The rule of thumb I was given was - if you can tap out blue belts - you're a blue belt (not all the time, but not a one off freak event either)

Seems pretty sensible to me

But then there's that argument of strength over technique - we have a white belt who is crazy strong (and 117KG) and has tapped purples before, but he couldn't even talk you through a half decent elbow escape.

With regards to time, it varies so much. When I graded for blue I'd been training just under a year and one of the other guys grading had been training for 3.5 years. Then you hear about some people in some clubs grading as quickly as 6 months...it's crazy and lacks continuity.

[widge milward]

When I graded for blue

??? what did this consist of?

[Predator]

Widge im the same as you i mainly do Wrestling and No-Gi.

I stick the Gi on realistically once a month just to tighten up and play with the grips etc. But my no-gi game is the same as my gi game. But with the Gi i have more things to grip. :)

IMO it is different then no Gi, You get different problems. But like all sport its trial and error and problem solving so its good.

I must admit when i grapple the higher level guys (Browns and blacks) They use the Gi alot and are super super tight.





But Wrestlers No1 baby! wooooooooooooooooooo :)

[Josh Palmer]

??? what did this consist of?

To be honest it was a fairly pointless array of hoops to jump through and really it was more to demonstrate to the newer white belts what sort of stuff they should work towards.

As with anything like this, the fact of whether or not you're capable was already established well before the grading actually took place.

Just had to demo a bunch of moves (was supposed to be 20 I think including a variety of passes, sweeps, subs etc but ended up being far less otherwise we wouldn't have gotten through it all in time) and had to grapple everybody in the club with no rest between rounds (17 people turned up). Not a big deal at all but as I said it was more for the whites to see what they could work towards.

[bigreddog]

Inch - point taken about strength etc (i'm superheavy so squashing small guys is my game at the moment!)

The way it was pitched to me was simply that the instructors would watch, and when you looked like you were of a similar level to other blues, you are blue. No gradings, just showing ability each week.

It is a bit arbitrary, but imho better than being asked to perform a series of moves once every 3 months

[Simon Hayes]

Widge-I have a feeling you are trolling,but i'll take the bait anyway.

I can only speak for Carlsons,but i am happy to describe the neccesary attributes required to gain a Blue Belt at our club.

Firstly-The rules are-There are NO rules,because everyone is different.Everyone has a different fighting style,different bodies and different brains,reflexes and attitudes.We encourage people to use their
attributes to their advantage.

If you are strong,it's natural to use your strength.

If you are clever,it's natural to use your brain.

If you are patient,it's natural to use your patience.

If you are explosive,it's natural to use your explosiveness

Etc Etc.

The first thing we are looking for when awarding a Blue is whether the White Belt can submit Blue Belt's of a similar size/weight to himself.

The next thing is,does the white belt get regularly submitted by other white belts,or has that stopped happening.

Does the white belt have a general understanding of posture,base and leverage.

Does the white belt have an understanding of how to escape from unfavourable positions using balance and leverage rather than just strength.

If an 'average' Judo black belt turned up at the gym,could the white belt
avoid getting submitted by him.

If an 'average' wrestler turned up at the gym,could the white belt avoid getting submitted by him.

These are just some of the criteria we will be looking at when deciding
whether a fighter is ready,but EVERY FIGHTER IS DIFFERENT and there is no SET criteria,everyone is judged on their own merit.

If a white belt wants to force the issue and make it impossible for his instructors to ignore him,a good way to get an early Blue Belt is by winning a couple of competitions in the white belt division.

I fully expect questions like 'What if all the other blue belts in the gym have been blue for 2 years-how will a white belt tap them' and, 'what if a guy is really skinny compared to the gym blue belts so cant tap them but is very technical' and, 'what if he can't tap the blues but hangs with them' and,
'what if the white belt is just a steroid abusing animal who just guillotines everyone and doesn't use good technique'??

Well these questions are why there are NO SOLID RULES and the decision is down to the instructor-because he has the experience to weigh up all the facts and decide if the fighter is good enough to represent his team as a Blue Belt or not.


Fastest Blue at Carlsons-4 months-candidate- Sambo Black Belt who was 85 kilo's of pure muscle.

Average time to get blue-18 MONTHS

Some guys are still white after 4 years.

How long did it take me? 1 YEAR,training 4 times a week with a background in Judo as a kid,kickboxing as an adult and weight training from 15 years old
religously.

Hope this helps.

P.S. There are no gradings,no money changes hands-when a white belt is ready he is handed a Blue Belt.Simple.

[widge milward]

Thanks for that Simon, was a really good post.

So do every club differ? Inchy was tlakign about gradings? others posted about being able to tap blues, others mention being able to perform certain techniques?

does it matter?

what clubs / affiliations use what processes? why do they differ?

Thanks again Simon.

[Simon Hayes]

Every club is different.At Carlsons we use the traditional method that has been used for many years in Brazil.

Whether a club runs 'gradings' or not is up to them,but my own belief is that money should NEVER change hands,and that the candidate must be able to submit Blue Belts.

[widge milward]

Every club is different.At Carlsons we use the traditional method that has been used for many years in Brazil.


what is this Simon? sorry for all the questions.

Ive heard stories about guys turning up to Royces seminar and getting a blue.

then other people buying belts and also guys being given belts "over the phone"

which clubs are known or this?

back in the days on SFUK Chen used to get bad mouthed all the time. why?

[JamesB]

Thanks for that Simon, was a really good post.

So do every club differ? Inchy was tlakign about gradings? others posted about being able to tap blues, others mention being able to perform certain techniques?

does it matter?

what clubs / affiliations use what processes? why do they differ?

Thanks again Simon.

Both of the Gracie Barra clubs I have trained at just handed you the belt when the instructor felt you were at the level of a blue. That being said there is a part of me that does like sound of demo'ing techniques, as long as the main deciding factor is still your sparring performance and you don't have to pay (or at least any extra than the normal class/mat fee). As long as your actually sparring performance (against people of similar size) is the main factor I don't think it really matters that much.

[Rob T]

What Simon describes is how I think belts should be awarded. All the promotions I have witnessed have been done like this.

[Simon Hayes]

GUYS-

As a 3rd degree yellow belt under Chen i will be happy to describe his method and comment on Widge's other statements in 3 hours time after i have
finished training.

oossss

[Simon Hayes]

btw Widge "the traditional brazilian method' we use is what i described in my first post.

[widge milward]

Nice one Simon.

So if im reading correctly, i could start BJJ, start tapping blues over a period of a couple of months and get a blue? would it help if i used the Gi more for submissions like chokes? lets say the only submissions i sued were an armabr and RNC, and i never even attempted Gi chokes. would this go against me?

[Simon Hayes]

No,it wouldn't go against you at Carlsons-as long as you are wearing a Gi
it wouldn't matter if you only used your favourite submissions,which are techniques that work with or without a Gi.

My favourite techniques are RNC and Arm bars too!!

[Josh Palmer]

Every club is different.At Carlsons we use the traditional method that has been used for many years in Brazil.

Whether a club runs 'gradings' or not is up to them,but my own belief is that money should NEVER change hands,and that the candidate must be able to submit Blue Belts.

Sorry let me clarify....I was only using the term grading as it seemed appropriate. We have that kind of informal system as well and recently it was just decided that it would be good to add a bit of formality to the class in which the belt is given - it's not a formal grading in the TMA sense and no money changes hands. It's basically does the instructor think you've done enough to show that you have a blue belt level of understanding and can you submit other blue belts.

[The Natural]

cracking post...

im in the same boat as widge and a few others here..

Nice input simon..good to hear from someone of ur calibre and knowledge of bjj..

I train no gi/wrestling regularly and always wondered about grading in the gi..slight problem tho..we have little or no bjj clubs within close vacinity..ie 2hrs drive one way..so i was wondering is there a no gi grading system that exists?

Does chris brennan have a no gi grading system where he awards coloured t shirts instead of belts? Maybe im wrong here..?!

I'd be interested, to say the least, in embarking upon a grading after competing in No Gi and Wrestling comps as @ this point would like something to show for my efforts!!:D

Any input appreciated..

[widge milward]

Chris Brennan and Leigh Remedios both have No-Gi grading systems i believe.

[Predator]

I personally dont need that reassurance. I know im good cus im tapping/competing with top guys.

my personal look on grappling/wrestling is i see it more of a sport then martial art. So its about self improvement not someone telling you your getting better. Your good when you kick ass lol, Simple.

However i still agree with the concept of belts as it lets people know what rough level you are at. I.E if someone new walks into the gym and says hes a blue belt in BBJ you will assume he has a understanding of the sport and can jump right in.

But i dont think a grading system for No-gi/wrestling is completely nessersery

[Josh Palmer]

Pred: I'm going to have to roll with you on Sunday since I still haven't rolled with half of you guys....right before I do my best to kill Ranj....LOL.

[tom blackledge]

Widge i would have thought you'd easily be at blue belt level having rolled with you about eight years ago so now with all that added weight you must be better ha ha.

Excellent post by Simon too.

[widge milward]

LOL fuck off 'Big Show'

[Manik]

widge is there a reason you want a blue belt? Is it to compete, or just recognition?

[widge milward]

no reason what so ever tbh, not fussed re blue,purple,brown etc.

its certainly not to boost my ego (thats big enough)

you here things like ABC just got his purple etc. it would just be used as a benchmark really to see my level.

[taffy]

so apparently his ego's big enough

[David Butlin]

I think ive mentioned before on here but I got a phone call enquiring as to who taught submission here. I told them I did and they asked what belt I was in BJJ when I said blue they hung up!! :-( So it is useful at times. Never helped me on the mats though.

D

On the other hand I have a blackbelt in Kickboxing, when I wear it im loads better!!!

[David Butlin]

To answer the question I had been grappling for 2 1/2 years when I got my blue belt in 2003.

D

[bigleeroy1]

LOL fuck off 'Big Show'

yeah fuck off "BIG SHOW" :D

[david5]

been training years and stil not a blue belt lol

[The Natural]

I fully agree with widge's 'apparent' trail of thought and i have to say that iconcur..

there are a few guys out there..not to name names.. that i have rolled with and hold considerable ranking in bjj and have held my own these individuals...but without a belt...there is little to show for these exploits..other than saying that - i've rolled with 'x' who is a bjj 'blue' (for example) and did ok...

It's Good to hear that Leigh and chris brennan has 'no gi' gradings...i would be very intested to hear what the requirements of each or any of the belts are...be great to hear another perpective from Leigh on the issue as he posts here regularly...;)

So do Bjj'ers generally offer a no gi option or is it a complete rarity?Is it mma restricted?

[Benws]

no reason what so ever tbh, not fussed re blue,purple,brown etc.

its certainly not to boost my ego (thats big enough)

you here things like ABC just got his purple etc. it would just be used as a benchmark really to see my level.

If you only want to benchmark your skill, you could just go and compete in a bjj comp.

[Andy K]

nice post from Simon, it's exactly the same at our gym when guys are ready they are promoted by Helen who is our Black Belt, really simple at the end of the regular session they get given their new belt.
The thing that sucks is now that Rob (who came from Simon's gym) is training with us we aren't allowed to whip people when they get graded :-(

[Simon Hayes]

Thanks Andy-

You can tell Rob being whipped never hurt him,and we still use the traditional belt whipping as a congratulation for all those receiving new belts.

Rob is a very highly educated man and i believe that as part of his education he came across some writings and philosophies regarding,bullying and
coercion of young people to take part in less than acceptable behaviour to be accepted into social groups and gangs.He looked at BJJ Belt whipping and
it fitted all the stereotypical 'bullying' mentalities.

I respect his opinion and can tell you Rob is a very very highly skilled Jiu Jitsu instructor.
But at Carlson Gracie we do still belt whip as a respect to those who came before us and to keep their tradition alive.

PLEASE CAN WE NOT TURN THIS THREAD INTO A BELT WHIPPING APPROVAL OR DISAPROVAL THREAD - Because it is boring and has been done so many times before.

[steve_langford]

*ignore*
posted the same time as Simon

[Andy K]

Simon- Sorry I didnt aim to try and change the thread at all that was just meant as a little joke! Rob is indeed a great Jiu Jitsu teacher and it's great to roll with him every week.
My main point was/is that to be a blue belt in BJJ you need to be able to hold your own with the other blue belts, use hip movement to get out of difficult positions and have a decent idea in all of the key postitons. Also I feel that it important to get out there and compete, so that you are testing your skills against people from other gyms.

[perfect virus]

i believe in mr miyagi's view of belts

[Lee Dickson]

Mario Sukata was telling me the other day that the Ju Jitsu federation are bringing new guideline out soon so that if you train regular in your classes every week you ll know exactly how long each belt will take you to get and when you ll be come a Black belt as where now its up to your instuctor.

[Andy K]

Some people will never be blackbelt standard in bjj no matter how long they train

[Simon Hayes]

Lee,
I am completely and utterly against that type of nasty McDojoism.

Andy, no problem bruv-i was joking too,and your comments about blue are spot on.

Perfect Virus-Mr Miyagi was a martial arts visionary who should be shown respect.

[Lee Dickson]

I think it has its down sides aswell as it upsides, i think it will lower the level of black belt standards but for an upside it will keep people in the gym and interested as they ll have dates and times to aim for.

[Simon Hayes]

Lee,

In my opinion everyones dates and times should be different otherwise you have a sport like taekwondo or karate where the belt means you have served your time,not that you can fight.

The BJJ belt is a sparring grade and means you are at a certain level in grappling sparring.

Some guys are never going to get even to blue,and others may never get to purple.

That is the way it is and to be honest if people leave our club because they are not getting belts then they shouldn't have started BJJ in the first place.

A high grade in BJJ means the person wearing the belt can fight to a high level.

A high grade in Karate,Kung Fu,Taekwondo,Kickboxing means the person wearing the belt has turned up to each class and demonstrated techniques correctly-they could be wearing a Black Belt and not be able to fight their way out of a paper bag.(Unfortunately Judo seems to be going the same way as of this year........).

I still completely and utterly disagree with awarding BJJ belts for classes attended or time served.It will never happen at Carlsons.

[Andy K]

You simply can not put a timescale on when people are going to get a belt its utter bull shit, im a blue belt have been for a year now and I know that every day i need to bring an A game as the standard in our gym is so high.

This is by John Kavanagh and is so true

White belt – enjoy this time. You have the right to ‘spaz out’ all the time and nobody can get pissed with you coz you’re a white belt. Nothing expected of you except you get tapped out by everyone. its in your contract that you must ignore all advice to 'relax' when rolling, you must instead contract all your muscle groups 100% and then flip out.

Blue belt – start getting used to expectation. You are expected to be able to control and tap every white belt you go with or else you’re a ‘weak blue’. This is in your contract, read it carefully. Blue belt is also known as the ‘accumulation belt’. According to your contract you must accumulate any and all techniques from any and all sources; you may even believe you are coming up with your own stuff – until you see it in some old judo book of course. It’s also in your contract that when rolling with higher belts you must time your roll and then discuss with other blue belters how long you lasted and attempt to compare them with other higher belts. You must also practice certain phrases now, such as when that judo BB grinds you into the mat you can comfort yourself he was just ‘using attributes’. According to your contract you must also begin working on your ‘contradiction skillz’ (perfected at purple belt). So when you see a technique demonstrated you immediately scan through your database of stored moves and come up with the counter (its important to ignore the fact that EVERY move has a counter). When it comes to practice time you must show your white belt partner the counter or better yet the variation on that same technique you were shown by a BJJ-celebrity (this theme is concentrated on at purple belt but important to introduce it now).
Purple belt – as with all belts you must be able to control and submit, regardless of weight etc, any and all belts below you or you’re a ‘weak purple’. According to your contract you must develop a slight Brazilian accent when teaching or talking at white belts (purple belts should never talk ‘to’ a white belt). Its important to know the name of every technique and every mundial champ, work on having some anecdotes that place you and said mundial champ in funny situations together – “haha then he turns to me and says ‘that’s not my camel’ oh we laughed for hours”.

Brown belt – read the fine print of this contract. By signing this you are agreeing to remain in a certain physical condition for the rest of your training life. The excuse ‘oh I’m way out of shape’ just will not fly anymore. Regardless of injury/sickness etc you MUST be able to control and submit all lower belts, even that mundial blue belt stud gunning for yah after you’ve been on the beer the night before. So before you sign that contract, think about it!

Black belt contract – are you really sure you want to sign this? Seriously have your lawyer check it with you, you may decide against it! Here are just a couple of things in it

1- You must develop this magical quality that when you roll with a blue/purple and they inevitably ask you ‘so what should I do to improve’ you must be able to dramatically improve their game by showing them an exact certain technique. Any response like ‘you just need more mat time’, or ‘relax more when rolling’ i.e. ‘real answers’ just will not do!
2- You must have a stunt speech at the ready for ‘black belt’ questions like “gi or no-gi?”, “could rickson beat sakuraba”, “attributes or technique”, “leglocks?” and so on.
3- According to your contract you must also remain in physical shape to be able to beat all lower belts plus any belt from any other system

So before agreeing to your next promotion read that contract carefully and ask yourself is it really worth the hassle?

[creonte]

frens

jiu jitsu not for poofters an faggots

[Andy K]

I was expecting something funny from you Creonte.......
You let me down!

[creonte]

fren

this faixa busynis is seerious,no joking

if shit white belt get blue then all white belt tap him an then they reckon they need blue as well

where is it all end maybe we give blue belt to people wen they come training first time so them keep come to gym and feel special?

[creonte]

i likey irish hedgehog stuff to

he clever and no one ever tap him

[Rob T]

Andy K, that belt level post was wicked! Haha :)


I agree that belts should never be given for time training. If someone quits because they didn't get a belt after X years then would you really want that person representing a higher grade? I know if I was a black belt I wouldn't want guys like that training under me.

[apex]

Andy K, that belt level post was wicked! Haha :)


I agree that belts should never be given for time training. If someone quits because they didn't get a belt after X years then would you really want that person representing a higher grade? I know if I was a black belt I wouldn't want guys like that training under me.

Same as GB in Orlando , they give nothing away! The only time i,ve seen someone move up a belt fast is when they go to a big BJJ Event & beat all in their belt class.

[marc goddard]

my head hurts.....

[Lee Dickson]

Mate am not disagreeing with you but thats what the federation are meant to be bringing into place am just passing on info what was told to me.
Lee,

In my opinion everyones dates and times should be different otherwise you have a sport like taekwondo or karate where the belt means you have served your time,not that you can fight.

The BJJ belt is a sparring grade and means you are at a certain level in grappling sparring.

Some guys are never going to get even to blue,and others may never get to purple.

That is the way it is and to be honest if people leave our club because they are not getting belts then they shouldn't have started BJJ in the first place.

A high grade in BJJ means the person wearing the belt can fight to a high level.

A high grade in Karate,Kung Fu,Taekwondo,Kickboxing means the person wearing the belt has turned up to each class and demonstrated techniques correctly-they could be wearing a Black Belt and not be able to fight their way out of a paper bag.(Unfortunately Judo seems to be going the same way as of this year........).

I still completely and utterly disagree with awarding BJJ belts for classes attended or time served.It will never happen at Carlsons.

[Lee Dickson]

To be fair i don t agree with you should be tapping every belt below you, i am only a blue belt and i can roll with higher belts and tap them occasionally and not be tapped for weeks if not months.
You simply can not put a timescale on when people are going to get a belt its utter bull shit, im a blue belt have been for a year now and I know that every day i need to bring an A game as the standard in our gym is so high.

This is by John Kavanagh and is so true

White belt – enjoy this time. You have the right to ‘spaz out’ all the time and nobody can get pissed with you coz you’re a white belt. Nothing expected of you except you get tapped out by everyone. its in your contract that you must ignore all advice to 'relax' when rolling, you must instead contract all your muscle groups 100% and then flip out.

Blue belt – start getting used to expectation. You are expected to be able to control and tap every white belt you go with or else you’re a ‘weak blue’. This is in your contract, read it carefully. Blue belt is also known as the ‘accumulation belt’. According to your contract you must accumulate any and all techniques from any and all sources; you may even believe you are coming up with your own stuff – until you see it in some old judo book of course. It’s also in your contract that when rolling with higher belts you must time your roll and then discuss with other blue belters how long you lasted and attempt to compare them with other higher belts. You must also practice certain phrases now, such as when that judo BB grinds you into the mat you can comfort yourself he was just ‘using attributes’. According to your contract you must also begin working on your ‘contradiction skillz’ (perfected at purple belt). So when you see a technique demonstrated you immediately scan through your database of stored moves and come up with the counter (its important to ignore the fact that EVERY move has a counter). When it comes to practice time you must show your white belt partner the counter or better yet the variation on that same technique you were shown by a BJJ-celebrity (this theme is concentrated on at purple belt but important to introduce it now).
Purple belt – as with all belts you must be able to control and submit, regardless of weight etc, any and all belts below you or you’re a ‘weak purple’. According to your contract you must develop a slight Brazilian accent when teaching or talking at white belts (purple belts should never talk ‘to’ a white belt). Its important to know the name of every technique and every mundial champ, work on having some anecdotes that place you and said mundial champ in funny situations together – “haha then he turns to me and says ‘that’s not my camel’ oh we laughed for hours”.

Brown belt – read the fine print of this contract. By signing this you are agreeing to remain in a certain physical condition for the rest of your training life. The excuse ‘oh I’m way out of shape’ just will not fly anymore. Regardless of injury/sickness etc you MUST be able to control and submit all lower belts, even that mundial blue belt stud gunning for yah after you’ve been on the beer the night before. So before you sign that contract, think about it!

Black belt contract – are you really sure you want to sign this? Seriously have your lawyer check it with you, you may decide against it! Here are just a couple of things in it

1- You must develop this magical quality that when you roll with a blue/purple and they inevitably ask you ‘so what should I do to improve’ you must be able to dramatically improve their game by showing them an exact certain technique. Any response like ‘you just need more mat time’, or ‘relax more when rolling’ i.e. ‘real answers’ just will not do!
2- You must have a stunt speech at the ready for ‘black belt’ questions like “gi or no-gi?”, “could rickson beat sakuraba”, “attributes or technique”, “leglocks?” and so on.
3- According to your contract you must also remain in physical shape to be able to beat all lower belts plus any belt from any other system

So before agreeing to your next promotion read that contract carefully and ask yourself is it really worth the hassle?

[Stalkachu]

A quick question to Simon and just in general:

If you are a white belt and you are regularly tapping blues but only utilising a tiny subset of the overall jiujitsu game. E.g. Triangles ...but you are tapping EVERY blue with it...do you get promoted? If your top game wouldn't work on a three month white belt but your bottom game is purple belt standard, what does that make you?

Just curious at what point 'well-roundedness' becomes relevant in belt grading systems, since I've been thinking a bit about the Lloyd Irvin approach to students, grading and competitions and wondering what people's opinions are on that side of things.

Take care,

Stalks

[Sir Tapsalot]

I've always thought of the blue belt as meaning that you know what to do from all the basic positions (e.g. mount, side mount, 1/2 & full guard, knee on belly and having the back with hooks in). Doesn't mean you're perfect in those positions, but that you know and understand the basic principals of how to attack and how to defend each of those positions.

James

[david5]

sarcasm is lost on some people

[Simon Hayes]

Ollie=
great question!

My opinion is this-

We should be building upon peoples talents and if they have a superb triangle game we should encourage it,rather than telling a student he needs to use other techniques,however during the course of sparring he will get put in bad positions (with your hypothetical triangle monster this would be getting put in his opponents guard where he can't use his triangles).

So the deciding factor for me on whether to award the "triangle monster"
a Blue belt,even though his game is pretty one sided would be this-

You say he would be tapping "every blue" with his triangles,but his top game wouldn't work on a 3 month white belt-

Well if HE NEVER gets submitted by white belts i would award him the Blue,
but if he is getting tapped by whites he would have to wait until his game was well rounded enough to defend and escape all the white belts attacks.

[creonte]

fren

teach kid standing guarde parss and clock choke then he real monster when mix with triangle

[widge milward]

So in a nutshell,

"all i would need to do" is roll up at BJJ, beat up a few bluebelts, i wouldnt need to adapt my current skill set if i could tap blues with armbars and RNC (are Heelhooks allowed?) then in around 6 months i should be a blue?

[Tommo]

I dont think it would take you 6 months widge more like one.......if you start tapping out their White & Blue belts all the time & can see your obvious skill set they would promote you asap.

Think its more a question of turning up to all the classes & showing that club commitment for you mate

[widge milward]

Tommo, so are belts given out due to time served to a gym? or is that particular gyms?

or did you mean i just have to continue training and smashign whites and blues on a regular basis?

[Simon Hayes]

Widge,

Being awarded a Blue at Carlsons means you are being asked to represent the
team.

The belt is being awarded for ability but also for making a commitment to fight with the team and train with the team.

This is very different for awarding a belt for 'time served' because if someone is not able to meet the requirements mentioned previously in
this thread they will not get a blue regardless how long they have trained with us.

However,if a guy turns up,shows that he has the required level,he won't get
awarded a belt instantly.We need to know he is serious about representing
Carlson Gracie Team and not just belt shopping.

BTW We do not allow heel hooks at ANY level.All other footlocks and leglocks are allowed from Blue onwards,but none at white belt because we find beginners never learn to pass the guard properly and are always looking for footlock instead if they start using them too early on in their
game.

[Musha Shugyo]

I've been thinking a bit about the Lloyd Irvin approach to students, grading and competitions and wondering what people's opinions are on that side of things.

Take care,

Stalks

I'm interested to learn about Lloyd Irvin's approach to those things you mentioned.What's his way of looking at those areas?

Thanks in advance.

[Josh Palmer]

Widge,
BTW We do not allow heel hooks at ANY level.All other footlocks and leglocks are allowed from Blue onwards,but none at white belt because we find beginners never learn to pass the guard properly and are always looking for footlock instead if they start using them too early on in their
game.


I was wondering if any on else had this experience - the majority of new guys I roll with seem to all want to fall back for straight ankle locks without even being able to open guard let alone pass. It really winds me up.

[Rob T]

It's because all beginners think that the single most important thing when rolling in training is to get your partner to tap.

[widge milward]

what is this Simon? sorry for all the questions.

Ive heard stories about guys turning up to Royces seminar and getting a blue.

then other people buying belts and also guys being given belts "over the phone"

which clubs are known or this?

back in the days on SFUK Chen used to get bad mouthed all the time. why?

Simon, you mentioned you would reply to this post after training, hopefully you or someone else can shed some light on this?

[Simon Hayes]

HERE'S THE BEGINNING OF THE STORY.I'LL DO MORE AFTER TRAINING.......




Grading with Chen-

*NOTE - Chen used his own grading system unlike any other BJJ system that i have experienced or heard about since.


I first came across BJJ abroad and after an intense 8 weeks training everyday,i returned to the U.K. and through word of mouth i heard there was a BJJ class at the world famous Budokwai Dojo in Chelsea.I was familiar
with the dojo after training there a couple of times in judo as a kid,but also
from doing some 'ne waza' (groundwork) classes there in 1998 after seeing the UFC and looking for BJJ and not finding any.

So,it's now 2001 and i am on my way to the budokwai to try out a BJJ class.Bear in mind i have only trained for 8 weeks with a purple belt,so i know a purple belt could end my life approximately every 20 seconds during sparring but apart from that i know nothing of the BJJ belt system.

When i walk into the down stairs dojo in the budokwai it was intimidating to say the least.It looked like a mixture of young London doorman with Serbian war criminals,polish wrestlers,tough young men from every race,religeon and creed-boxers,streetfighters,traditional martial arts black belts,bodybuilders.

You have to remember this was in 2001 and every person who wanted to get into 'ultimate fighting' had heard he must learn Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or they would be beaten by this secret,magic art.

[taffy]

wow i cant wait to see how this turns out

[Tommo]

Tommo, so are belts given out due to time served to a gym? or is that particular gyms?

or did you mean i just have to continue training and smashign whites and blues on a regular basis?


I know you can grapple mate & prob tap out most people.....I just mean that for a club to give you a belt you would have to show a commitment to that club by showing your face at every session for a while!

[Stalkachu]

I'm interested to learn about Lloyd Irvin's approach to those things you mentioned.What's his way of looking at those areas?

Thanks in advance.

I read a much more eloquent version of this somewhere else, but I'll try and give my own interpretation:

Basically, the Lloyd Irvin approach to success:

1. Specialisation - choose one area that you can focus on, that you can devote a lot of time to and which you believe you can impose in most positions of a grappling match. The best example of this is guard play, but it could be footlocks, chokes, whatever. The key is to develop mastery of one small aspect of the game to the point that it may be well below the level of other aspects of your game but far in advance of the average person of your experience.

2. Variation - choose an area that most people are not familiar with to develop. In Ryan's example, you have the inverted guard, the innovative heel hook setups (which in turn are helpful, because the vast majority of BJJ practitioners have inferior heel hook defense compared to the rest of their submission defense), etc. This means that when you develop this area to its fullest extent, it is not only your strongest point, it's your strongest point against most of your opposition's weaker points.

3. Competition - compete as much as possible, whenever possible. This not only keeps your training at a high level because you always have a competition to prepare for, it highlights weaknesses in your game, and develops a strong mental game for further competition, since you've 'been there, done that' by the time you get around to your 100th competition, or whatever.

...that's how I remember it, and it does make a fair amount of sense. It does, however, help that his good guys get to train for free full time with a personal black belt day in day out to make them the best they can be. Which can only be a plus point. ^_^

Hope that was at least a little interesting.

Take care,

Stalks

[Rob T]

For those of you who enjoy reading Simon's story (and you will, because he has an excellent way of conveying himself) check this thread out;

http://www.efnsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=2811.0

[Musha Shugyo]

I read a much more eloquent version of this somewhere else, but I'll try and give my own interpretation:

Basically, the Lloyd Irvin approach to success:

1. Specialisation - choose one area that you can focus on, that you can devote a lot of time to and which you believe you can impose in most positions of a grappling match. The best example of this is guard play, but it could be footlocks, chokes, whatever. The key is to develop mastery of one small aspect of the game to the point that it may be well below the level of other aspects of your game but far in advance of the average person of your experience.

2. Variation - choose an area that most people are not familiar with to develop. In Ryan's example, you have the inverted guard, the innovative heel hook setups (which in turn are helpful, because the vast majority of BJJ practitioners have inferior heel hook defense compared to the rest of their submission defense), etc. This means that when you develop this area to its fullest extent, it is not only your strongest point, it's your strongest point against most of your opposition's weaker points.

3. Competition - compete as much as possible, whenever possible. This not only keeps your training at a high level because you always have a competition to prepare for, it highlights weaknesses in your game, and develops a strong mental game for further competition, since you've 'been there, done that' by the time you get around to your 100th competition, or whatever.

...that's how I remember it, and it does make a fair amount of sense. It does, however, help that his good guys get to train for free full time with a personal black belt day in day out to make them the best they can be. Which can only be a plus point. ^_^

Hope that was at least a little interesting.

Take care,

Stalks

Ollie,thanks for the reply.That is more than a little interesting!

Be well.

[Tommo]

For those of you who enjoy reading Simon's story (and you will, because he has an excellent way of conveying himself) check this thread out;

http://www.efnsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=2811.0

A great thread although I am confused as to why he didnt just hire a car in the first story with sat-nav which will cost around 100e for the week???!! :D

[joeymac]

I read a much more eloquent version of this somewhere else, but I'll try and give my own interpretation:

Basically, the Lloyd Irvin approach to success:

1. Specialisation - choose one area that you can focus on, that you can devote a lot of time to and which you believe you can impose in most positions of a grappling match. The best example of this is guard play, but it could be footlocks, chokes, whatever. The key is to develop mastery of one small aspect of the game to the point that it may be well below the level of other aspects of your game but far in advance of the average person of your experience.




Very interesting reading, but the last bit of point 1 confused me.

"develop mastery of one small aspect of the game to the point that it may be well BELOW the level of other aspects of your game but far in advance of the average person of your experience"

I dont understand how you could focus on one thing, lets say heel hooks, and for it to still be below the other aspects of your game. Surely it would be the most advanced part of your game?

[Suley]

The Simon thread on the link that was posted was cool - kept me entertained all day uhummm on short work breaks I allow myself.

Someone should put them over here.

[Stalkachu]

Very interesting reading, but the last bit of point 1 confused me.

"develop mastery of one small aspect of the game to the point that it may be well BELOW the level of other aspects of your game but far in advance of the average person of your experience"

I dont understand how you could focus on one thing, lets say heel hooks, and for it to still be below the other aspects of your game. Surely it would be the most advanced part of your game?

You make a fair point. Guess I just wasn't focusing very well.

More accurately...

"develop mastery of one small aspect of the game to the point that your overall game may have areas that are far below that of someone of equivalent experience, but your strong points will be far in advance of that same person."

I mean, you knew that, but I guess I should clarify. ^_^

Thanks for the thanks!

Take care,

Stalks

[joeymac]

Thanks a lot mate, thought that was what you meant but just wanted to check.

[Andy K]

Simon: Wow some of those stories are amazing you really should write a book, a gap in the market and im sure it would be a bestseller! The things that you wrote about ego and how it can control you are very true!
:)

[Simon Hayes]

Thanks for the kind words guys.

Sorry i havent got around to writing my chen piece yet but im training 4 times per day at the moment........

for the time being here is the link again to a load of tall tails and shenanigans i have got up to in various gyms around the world,
if you bear with it there is a good story about a vale tudo fight
in 2001 on the set of a film that i witnessed!

http://www.efnsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=2811.0

[Identity One]

That "Poodle" story was brilliant.
The Bulgarian Body-builder story was also another good read... I laughed out loud when I read who they trained with.

Is that where you do all your writing, Simon, or do you have a personal blog?
Your exploits make for some great light reading.

[Mike Bishop]

I've just moved over to Sydney and have changed from BTT/Ze Marcello to Anthony Lange's Machado club in Manly. Although the gradings seem very traditional in many respects, he does have a syllabus and has told me he wants to see me comfortable with all his purple belt requirements before I can make that move - it's a fairly large list of techniques from sweeps to different guards etc.

I think that's actually a good idea because I overly relied on attributes to the neglect of learning techniques in getting to blue.

It has to be mentioned that Ze (top man though he is) does charge for gradings - about 30 quid I think

[widge milward]

It has to be mentioned that Ze (top man though he is) does charge for gradings - about 30 quid I think

are you serious? thats a bit dodgy, so is BJJ slowly turning into a Mcdojo sport? or just certain gyms?

[Mike Bishop]

belts are very much earned but there was a charge for grading

[creonte]

frens,

wen i young my mother she take me to shaolin gung fu class
it very fun but teacher charge for take a belt and i have to show
tekneeks that not possible for me to use in spar or fight because
not good for my body tipe (i short with hairy legs and not flexible)
but teacher insist i demonstrait tekneek even though i never can do for real

this sounds like guy him charge £30 for grading and other haustralian man who ask student demontsrait tekneek even though him cannot do in fight-

maybe these jiu jitsu teacher learn about business skeem from my kung fu professor?

[creonte]

frens,i jus call my old gung fu professor to find out if him no ze marcello or antony lange haustralia but him retire from teach and go live in yacht sale round caribean so i cannot fine out any hinformation.

[Andy K]

What do people think purple belt requirements are???
Creonte I would be interested to hear your oppinion on this one, that is if your not too busy drinking acai juice!

[creonte]

fren,

purple must smash people. SMASH THEM.
that is hequirement for purple
purple belt dangerus man

if purple belt cannot smash he not real purple

[Andy K]

Thanks for that Creonte! I will endevour to work on my smashing and dangerouseness

[tom blackledge]

Simon, those stories are great entertainment, as people have said you definately should see about writing a book.
As for charging for gradings, i have heard this is getting quite common now.

[shakus maximus]

fren,

purple must smash people. SMASH THEM.
that is hequirement for purple
purple belt dangerus man

if purple belt cannot smash he not real purple

that put a smile on my face

[Reedy]

I would have thought a judo black belt should be subbing a white belt or blue belt for fun.


Widge-I have a feeling you are trolling,but i'll take the bait anyway.

I can only speak for Carlsons,but i am happy to describe the neccesary attributes required to gain a Blue Belt at our club.

Firstly-The rules are-There are NO rules,because everyone is different.Everyone has a different fighting style,different bodies and different brains,reflexes and attitudes.We encourage people to use their
attributes to their advantage.

If you are strong,it's natural to use your strength.

If you are clever,it's natural to use your brain.

If you are patient,it's natural to use your patience.

If you are explosive,it's natural to use your explosiveness

Etc Etc.

The first thing we are looking for when awarding a Blue is whether the White Belt can submit Blue Belt's of a similar size/weight to himself.

The next thing is,does the white belt get regularly submitted by other white belts,or has that stopped happening.

Does the white belt have a general understanding of posture,base and leverage.

Does the white belt have an understanding of how to escape from unfavourable positions using balance and leverage rather than just strength.

If an 'average' Judo black belt turned up at the gym,could the white belt
avoid getting submitted by him.

If an 'average' wrestler turned up at the gym,could the white belt avoid getting submitted by him.

These are just some of the criteria we will be looking at when deciding
whether a fighter is ready,but EVERY FIGHTER IS DIFFERENT and there is no SET criteria,everyone is judged on their own merit.

If a white belt wants to force the issue and make it impossible for his instructors to ignore him,a good way to get an early Blue Belt is by winning a couple of competitions in the white belt division.

I fully expect questions like 'What if all the other blue belts in the gym have been blue for 2 years-how will a white belt tap them' and, 'what if a guy is really skinny compared to the gym blue belts so cant tap them but is very technical' and, 'what if he can't tap the blues but hangs with them' and,
'what if the white belt is just a steroid abusing animal who just guillotines everyone and doesn't use good technique'??

Well these questions are why there are NO SOLID RULES and the decision is down to the instructor-because he has the experience to weigh up all the facts and decide if the fighter is good enough to represent his team as a Blue Belt or not.


Fastest Blue at Carlsons-4 months-candidate- Sambo Black Belt who was 85 kilo's of pure muscle.

Average time to get blue-18 MONTHS

Some guys are still white after 4 years.

How long did it take me? 1 YEAR,training 4 times a week with a background in Judo as a kid,kickboxing as an adult and weight training from 15 years old
religously.

Hope this helps.

P.S. There are no gradings,no money changes hands-when a white belt is ready he is handed a Blue Belt.Simple.

[Simon Hayes]

Maybe a white belt,but not a Blue.

[Simon Hayes]

Here is something i wrote on this subject a year or so ago-



At Carlson Gracie BJJ Revolution Team a Blue Belt will be available only to those that have shown they can use solid fundamental Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Techniques to be able to submit Blue Belts of a similar size and athletic ability to themselves in live sparring with their opponent offering full resistance.The Belt will have no financial cost,but instead will be a very expensive commitment of your time,intellect and spirit.
There will be no course,and no grading-Just a test of your heart and ability every time you step on the mat.

That is true Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

[warren]

im looking at the graciebarra newcastle , how do they grade? anyone know if its gradings or are belts awarded when the instructer thinks the person is ready?

[steve_langford]

I just think when your ready.......your ready?

Im a whitebelt , dont really care when I get promoted to be honest. Im enjoying training and know that if I do get promoted then ive earned it.

[steve_langford]

I do however wish that I started with Gracie Barra originally! Id of been training GI for 3yrs now!

[Manik]

TTT for the rest of purple Haze' chen story

[piratebrido]

Widge for a bottle of irn bru and a 6 pack of mars bars I will let you tap me in front of a big baws black belt. They will give you a blue belt then.

[widge milward]

TTT for Simons response re Chen

[iandean]

I got my Blue Belt in 3 days off MMA Universe priced at £7.99

:D

[steve_langford]

I got my Blue Belt in 3 days off MMA Universe priced at £7.99

:D

lol trust you!

[bigleeroy1]

I got my Blue Belt in 3 days off MMA Universe priced at £7.99

:D

robbed got mine from jjb £3.99:D

[Rob T]

Same here; both my blue and purple belts cost me £3.99 at JJB. I do not understand why people will spend £15 on branded belts. I expect the profit margin at £4 is enough, £15 is ridiculous.

[Andy K]

You should do what guys at our gym do (as suggested by our head coach Chris Hauter) when guys are promoted to purple they leave their old blue belt and a 'new blue' gets it when promoted, that way no one really pays for a belt!

[dunny]

i like to keep my belts

[Tommo]

Have you got it yet Widge?

[widge milward]

Ive not had the time to go to a BJJ session tbh mate, other priorities at the miute pal

[Manik]

when is simon hayes gonna finish his story?

[aaronwillis]

so is the grading level the same as kickboxing
white
red
yellow
orange and so on

[creonte]

yes similar to kickboxing my fren but with less faggots

[Tommo]

And with none of those colours you mention!!

[steve_langford]

And with none of those colours you mention!!

unless your -16 ;)

[vileniall]

And with none of those colours you mention!!

white???????

[aaronwillis]

how many stripes are there per belt