Cardio

[pirrie]

Hey im pretty new to mma, only been to 2 sessions and thought i was in some short of shape but have been shown i aint in this short time lol. I do realise that just running for distance isnt going to be the specific and therefore effective training method for doing MMA in general but im guessing it will help in the long run, so ive got a few questions guys...

Wot sorta distance if you were gonna go running would you do?

What sort of pace would you be looking at going? i.e. shorter distance but fast or long distance n slower

Would you advise going running?

..Im currently doing just under 5 miles in 50 mins which is bad but im getting better lol
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[vileniall]

no less than 8 miles or it's pointless.

[Rob Hannis]

Hey im pretty new to mma, only been to 2 sessions and thought i was in some short of shape but have been shown i aint in this short time lol. I do realise that just running for distance isnt going to be the specific and therefore effective training method for doing MMA in general but im guessing it will help in the long run, so ive got a few questions guys...

Wot sorta distance if you were gonna go running would you do?

What sort of pace would you be looking at going? i.e. shorter distance but fast or long distance n slower

Would you advise going running?

..Im currently doing just under 5 miles in 50 mins which is bad but im getting better lol


If you want to be fit for MMA, do MMA. If you insist on running then sprints/hill sprints are the best option. If you're a bit unsure what to do find a football pitch, sprint the long sides and walk/jog the short sides in between. The fitter you get, or the more used to it, start increasing the speed you do the shorter sides in. Or add a circuit exercise onto the end of each side.

I only do any kind of distance running if I need to loosen up, relax or clear my head. And that will only be 3 or 4 miles. You aren't training to be a distance runner so why put it in your training?

[pirrie]

I only do any kind of distance running if I need to loosen up, relax or clear my head. And that will only be 3 or 4 miles. You aren't training to be a distance runner so why put it in your training?


This was my concern as its not specific but i was thinking that doing some cardio training on days there is no classes near me is gonna make my endurance better surely?? or do u not agree with this??
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[Maccavelli]

Might have some carry over as mma classes last over an hour. But chucking in some faster paced intervals within the run itself wouldnt hurt.

[Rob Hannis]

This was my concern as its not specific but i was thinking that doing some cardio training on days there is no classes near me is gonna make my endurance better surely?? or do u not agree with this??

Like maccavelli says try to add some different bits in there, or take a gentle jog to a hill and work sprints up it. One run a week is the most you need, sprints, intervals, tabata's rosstraining etc are better if you can't get to your classes.

Do a search on these forums for tabata's, intervals etc

[Rosi]

no less than 8 miles or it's pointless.

why is that?

[simmy]

Do people not see fedor doing speed distance running with vovchanchin and zenstov on the documentaries/youtube...I personally believe that hill sprints and sprints in general make a fighters legs lactate and feel pumped too fast causing fatigue (real bad for mma)..i have started to do distance 3-4miles working upto 7miles 3-4 times per week as my legs feel looser, faster and lighter when wrestling and striking..also whole body feels faster too..sprints just dont work for me..everyone to their own i guess..Oh and i eat shit loads of good wholesome foods whilst doing distance causing only excess fat loss if needed..

[MAD MMA]

no less than 8 miles or it's pointless.

why 8 miles?

if your going to start running start at a around 3-4 miles. you could also do sprints, and as you graduallty grow fitter and start to improve, increase the distance and speed of your runs

[Seca Sec]

(he was being sarcastic)

[Maccavelli]

Do people not see fedor doing speed distance running with vovchanchin and zenstov on the documentaries/youtube

Judging a fighters entire program by a youtube clip probably isnt the best way to base your ideas.

Sprints = great for improving work capacity and developing power
Long distance= Great for recovery.

imo

[simmy]

Judging a fighters entire program by a youtube clip probably isnt the best way to base your ideas.

Sprints = great for improving work capacity and developing power
Long distance= Great for recovery.

imo


I see your point but even my greco book states lsd running should be first hand and priority above sprint training..But one could incorporate both into same workout i guess..same routines wont work same for everyone..

[Rosi]

I see your point but even my greco book states lsd running should be first hand and priority above sprint training..But one could incorporate both into same workout i guess..same routines wont work same for everyone..

I think it does depend a lot on the individual... some will need to focus more on developing endurance, others on working speed and power. All depends on what you tend to be naturally good or bad at, and on how you like to fight.

[Duchman]

I see your point but even my greco book states lsd running should be first hand and priority above sprint training..But one could incorporate both into same workout i guess..same routines wont work same for everyone..

mma aint greco.

next to that dont judge training routines on what pros do. fedor etc are on of a kind

[simmy]

I was using fedors video as an example..and also the greco as examples...Karelin, fedor, vovchanchin, povetkin and more do lsd running 'when we see them on vids' but yes they could be doing sprints off camera too..Rosi is correct that all individuals are good and bad at certain things within training and they have to train up those weaknesses and also in my opinion..if a routine works for you, do not kep changing it as do alot of american programmes i have seen in past...Something i have noticed with certain heavyweight fighters, is that the sprint trainers seem to gas faster than lsd trainers with equal skill..that is only my opinion and based on what i have tried and seen within fights..

[livercrank]

After viewing some of the posts, even though you are all right and training levels vary depending on what results you gain from your exercise programmes etc. But I just think if you're training MMA you need to take the period of competition into consideration. Like a 40 min steady run would be good, but surely wouldnt 15 mins hill runs, plyometrics, circuits..basically intense and power endurance exercises, with 30 seconds rest is surely more beneficial. People will say so Im only going to last 15 minutes......YES!!! because thats all you need to train for. It can work against you if you do longer exercises, because you will subconsiously pace yourself.....lets face it, we're built to cheat sometimes and weve all paced ourselves with hard exercises occasionally. It is not being lazy or doing the minimal amount, its being smart and allowing yourself to continually compete around 160 - 170 rpm for the duration of the bout. Look at sean sherk for example...if anything, he does his steady run of a night or morning as a fat burning exercise to keep his weight down, as well as it being a cool down or good way to start the busy day. Some people defeat themselves before they even start by saying they cant do an exercise like that fullout (maybe so) but keep trying and defying the odds...our bodies are complex and we adapt very quickly to our surroundings and training.

[Emmet J]

I see your point but even my greco book states lsd running should be first hand and priority above sprint training.

Running on lsd never ends well.

[highlander1980]

Do people not see fedor doing speed distance running with vovchanchin and zenstov on the documentaries/youtube...I personally believe that hill sprints and sprints in general make a fighters legs lactate and feel pumped too fast causing fatigue (real bad for mma)..i have started to do distance 3-4miles working upto 7miles 3-4 times per week as my legs feel looser, faster and lighter when wrestling and striking..also whole body feels faster too..sprints just dont work for me..everyone to their own i guess..Oh and i eat shit loads of good wholesome foods whilst doing distance causing only excess fat loss if needed..

The lactate is good so that the body learns to deal with oxygen debt. However i will agree that doing it everytime you run is wasting training time as a varied routine helps recovery and works different energy pathways.
Every training session has an effect regardless of whether you want that effect or not. So i would say throw in some sprints but not to the stage where it affects other training you do. The same gos for weights lifting to failure builds big muscles but is that the effect you want? gymnasts go for good power to weight ration and dont often lift to failure they do low reps and good form.
I would say any training which puts you in oxygen debt is good but you should recover enough for it not to affect your next training session, if it does tone it down.

[MikeyL]

The best way to get fit for mma, is mma.

Try to get a copy of Bas Ruttens condtioning workout on audio, I think Nathen B must do it in his sleep lol

[Jamie Taylor]

Mikey you are so wrong its not even funny.

The bas workout is a purely aerobic workout, with a tiny bit of muscular endurance work ( press ups, sit ups, neck bridge ) Certainly nowhere near enough to get you fit for mma especially as theres huge rest periods during the 30 mins !!

To be fit for mma you need to improve all 3 energy systems. Aerobic, glycolitic and anaerobic.

Unfortunately the bas cd doesnt cut it in that respect. Sure it will increase your aerobic capacity if you do it regularly but please dont think it will get you fighting fit mate.

You know where I am if you need to ask anything !

[MikeyL]

Mikey you are so wrong its not even funny.

The bas workout is a purely aerobic workout, with a tiny bit of muscular endurance work ( press ups, sit ups, neck bridge ) Certainly nowhere near enough to get you fit for mma especially as theres huge rest periods during the 30 mins !!

To be fit for mma you need to improve all 3 energy systems. Aerobic, glycolitic and anaerobic.

Unfortunately the bas cd doesnt cut it in that respect. Sure it will increase your aerobic capacity if you do it regularly but please dont think it will get you fighting fit mate.

You know where I am if you need to ask anything !

Well thats me told, back to my corner I go :)

To be fair though it still must be a lot better for mma than just running in a straight line (not including sprints)? I thought that running in a straight line basicly gives you the fitness for that and that it doesnt transfer well to other sports?


http://www.t-nation.com/article/performance_training/cosgroves_five_ahha_moments
(Scroll to 'Ah-Ha moment 3')

Im not claiming that it will be the only conditioning training that you will ever need or that I have the ability to recommed a great programme (I dont have anywere near the kind of knowlage for that), I just thought that it would be more specific than running for 4-8 miles.

I realise that sprints are a good in the respects that it helps with oxyden debt, lactate etc but surely rolling/sparring with short rsets would have a better effect?

Still may be WAY off the mark though and apologise if im just spouting shit.

[Jamie Taylor]

Im not claiming that it will be the only conditioning training that you will ever need or that I have the ability to recommed a great programme (I dont have anywere near the kind of knowlage for that), I just thought that it would be more specific than running for 4-8 miles.

You are correct, the cd is more specific for mma but who says running in a straight line is the only other option ? There are a LOT better things you can do than the bas rutten cd is the point im making as it's mainly aerobic ( pretty much the same as running in a straight line for 30 mins as hr stays in the aerobic zone ).

Obviously the better your aerobic threshold, the harder / longer you can work before relying on the non-oxidative energy sytsems so in that respect doing the cd / going on 30 min runs is good for that but of course we all know an mma fight much more is required.

If when you said ' to get fit for mma do mma, get yourself a copy of the bas cd ' you meant sparring / rolling should be first priority and just mentioned the cd as an extra cardio tool then I agree to a certain extent but still sparring etc alone is not enough.

hiit, tabata intervals, aerobic work ( minimal ), minute drills, strength endurance, power training, maximal strength training, plyometrics etc will all help but expecting to be fit for a fight just from 'doing mma' will get you nowhere. You should be ' in shape ' before you even think bout sparring otherwise your technique goes to shit and you just get beat up which as we all know isn't the best way to learn.

Hope that made sense mikey boy, so get ya fucking trainers on and o do some hill sprints or something you lazy cunt.

[Jamie Taylor]

That article is just stating the importance of sports specific work. Look at the bas cd, when in a fight are you going to stop and do neck bridges / sit ups / press ups etc for 30 secs ? Not very sports specific now is it.

Lifting heavy weights above your head / off the ground etc, is that gonna happen in a fight ? Are you going to be required to use explosive strength at regular intervals ? Is your heart rate going to go above 85-90% of your max ? Is there times when squeezing for positions / chokes etc the lactate builds up in your arms so bad you can barely move them ?

Does any of this happen in the bas cd ? like I say you are right about doing mma but when sparring you shouldnt really be going 100% its for learning and practising new techniques ( except maybe if theres a fight coming up and you want to go harder ).

Bottom line - Do the absolute agonising, ball bustingly intense conditioning sessions in your own time.

[MikeyL]

I agree with everything above mate,

I was just offering the CD as an alternative to jogging as it would be more specific (not to mention not as boring). I dint mean to imply that it should be the only conditioning work you do as it could never replace strength, endurance, power, mobility work etc.

As for being 'in shape' before sparring its no wonder i get worked over lol.

Ps. please dont include hill sprints in our conditioning work....

[livercrank]

Jamie T is spot on..he knows his shit!! All the areas you have given examples on have to be covered in your training or you will not be able to utilise all your tools to your best ability. at the end of the day, you cant train exactly for a fight as it is instant and spontaneous to some respect but we can train the sufficient muscle groups and energy systems to their maximum level.

It pisses me off when i go the gym and theres fighters who are doing cardio, conditioning etc. and all they're doing is bench press, shoulder press etc, all typical exercises you see in total fitness. dont get me wrong they will increase strength and endurance..but you have to evaluate the movement..is it functional when fighting..will I be benchpressing some one in a fight? Obviously the answer is no, and people continue to these power compound exercises and then are surprised when they gas so quickly in a fight. four words for any fighter wanting to get fit SEAN SHERK ALL ACCESS!! that guy has everything down to a tee

[stapesmk1]

Jamie T is spot on..he knows his shit!! All the areas you have given examples on have to be covered in your training or you will not be able to utilise all your tools to your best ability. at the end of the day, you cant train exactly for a fight as it is instant and spontaneous to some respect but we can train the sufficient muscle groups and energy systems to their maximum level.

It pisses me off when i go the gym and theres fighters who are doing cardio, conditioning etc. and all they're doing is bench press, shoulder press etc, all typical exercises you see in total fitness. dont get me wrong they will increase strength and endurance..but you have to evaluate the movement..is it functional when fighting..will I be benchpressing some one in a fight? Obviously the answer is no, and people continue to these power compound exercises and then are surprised when they gas so quickly in a fight. four words for any fighter wanting to get fit SEAN SHERK ALL ACCESS!! that guy has everything down to a tee

Definately agree with a lot what you're saying. It did suprise me to see Sherk's weight lifting routine though where he does bodybuilding movements and even split up bodyparts in a bodybuilder split.

Any thoughts on that mate?

Rest of his training looked just awesome.

Stapes

[Seca Sec]

Definately agree with a lot what you're saying. It did suprise me to see Sherk's weight lifting routine though where he does bodybuilding movements and even split up bodyparts in a bodybuilder split.

Any thoughts on that mate?

Rest of his training looked just awesome.

Stapes

he says something along the lines of "i get all my functional strength and endurance from my caveman training. I lift weights like a bodybuilder to look good"


which is fair enough buttt as a top 5 fighter in the world why waste so much energy lifting weights isolating muscles giving you non-functional strength.


Bessides...Ive found compound excersises actually give you a better body. but thats a whole different argument itself...

[vileniall]

what? whats going on? lol

what sort of strength work SHOULD I be doing?

[Leigh]

ok, i'm about to own this thread. sorry in advance

to people saying sprints are the best, training mma is best, doing 15 minutes for intervals is best, 45 mins hard run is best etc - you are wrong. some inidviduals may be able to get away with that but they would have to be good natural athletes

they are ALL beneficial and infact critical if you are naturally weak at endurance. the problem is being able to fit in LSD, hard runs, sprint sessions, muscle endurance, mma specific conditioning etc. the answer to this problem is periodisation

in a very broad sense, i recommend the following:-

block 1 - aerobic base

block 2 - anaerobic work to build on aerobic base

block 3 - sport specific conditioning

this is just an example for endurance. strength and speed work etc would also have to be addressed

other people have different ideas on how to periodise their training and they couold well be better than the examples i gave but the truth is, you need a well developed aerobic system (you are not going to be able to go anaerobic for 15 minutes, so anyone that says a fight is purely anaerobic is full of shit). you also need a strong anaerobic system, as well as a ATP-CP system. and you most definitely need to be fit for fighting. and if you train these all at the same time, you will either not train them adequately or you will over-train

i recommend people who plan to fight in the future spend their time improving their base attributes off-season. eg, spend 3 months working on your max strength, then spend some time building your anaerobic system etc. then when you do fight, you can peak them for competition

[stapes360]

I dont like posting on these threads about "the best way to...." anymore as there are so many unqualiffied/unaccomplished self-proclaimed experts (not aimed at anyone inparticular on this thread, just a general observation).

But as leigh has pointed out, periodisation is THE ONLY way to make sure you hit a peak for your competition.
It is not simply a question of "what is better?", its more a question of "what is more relevant at what time"
"Its not WHAT you do, its HOW you do it"

[Alex Gold]

Leigh is right on the money, as expected ;)

[MikeyL]

Seems this thread has been hijacked by 'what is the best overall workout for mma'.

The original post was for running for mma. As far as I can see there are much better aerobic work outs than simply running for mma

[livercrank]

I know what you're saying, the thread has just snowballed. But you guys have some good points which I will certainly use, especially from Stapes and Leigh. I may be old fashioned, but I just have the attitude that if im a featherweight I want to be able to pickup and push 70kg for 15 minutes flat out...some people say its impossible to train at that rate but our bodies adapt more than we think and can withstand a lot. For example, instead of me clean and jerking 100kg and getting two reps....id rather clean and jerk 70kg - 75kg for a minute. Power endurance is essential and in my opinion this combination of energy system in MMA is gold!! Check out the Gym Jones videos on Youtube...they are the guys who got the 300 guys in shape, as well as get many Mixed Martial Artists, Grapplers, Mountaineers into shape...some very good methods they use. Let me know what you think

[Duchman]

I think there is a over ephasis on conditining by most people. They will be better off doing gi work with a good black belt.
Super cardio machine = strap him in a gi with someone like marcelo garcia and they will gas after 3 mins of rolling