Core Training for MMA

[stapesmk1]

So Ive done a search on owd tinternet for "Core training for MMA" for some fresh ideas and I found this awesome video............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hex9EnTu3Uc

Its Dtec MMA California.

Stapes

[vileniall]

ok right...

[Luke]

If you want tough Ill show ya tough!

[Beev]

Not exactly the best form ive seen striking wise! Guard right down by his chest and the first kick he throws is shocking! I also wouldnt consider:

3 Sets of :
1,2,3,4 punches
kick, kick
knee knee

Do this as fast and powerful as possible.

Repeat 3 times without rest.

To be a warm up. maybe 2-3 rounds of Bas Ruttens Thai Boxing workout, on either a heavy bag or with 2-3lb hand weights would be a much better warm up. I dont think the g&p followed by bag slams is the most intense workout either. A better option would be to keep switching position while doing g&p for one minute. follow that with heavybag shouldering for a minute, and repet that sequence 3 times without rest then you have a descent warm up.

Yours,
Beev

[David Swann]

This was sarcasim...


Great find Stapes he has got it all going on.

[stapesmk1]

I have got some genuinely good core stability/strength/endurance ideas form some really good websites.

Synergy Fitness is a good start folks.

Core training is so wide an varied you can never get bored or run out of ideas!!

Theres your functional strength training that develops core strength (kettlebells, sandbags, indian clubs etc), medicine ball routines, TRX, Olympic rings, body tension (plank and prone exercises), bodyweight exercises.....the list is endless.

Happy hunting folks.

Stapes

[Duchman]

Stapes, if i was you i beter delete talking shit about dtec. You dont want to get a nasty pm

[Leigh]

I don't think additional core work is necessary unless you have a weakness. There is enough to fit in with everything else in MMA. If you're wrestling, grappling, kickboxing etc, your core gets plenty of work, let alone additional work like strength training etc.

[Duchman]

Judo and gi work is best for core. Cause you keep getting pulled forward..

[The Natural]

I don't think additional core work is necessary unless you have a weakness. There is enough to fit in with everything else in MMA. If you're wrestling, grappling, kickboxing etc, your core gets plenty of work, let alone additional work like strength training etc.

Was thinking the same thing...

were do people get the time to do all this training?:D

a full training schedule ie: kbox, grappling/bjj, wrestling....plus try keep a job, the mrs, do some running, some cond, and now core work??? Somethings gotta give!!!;)

[stapes360]

I dissagree, i believe core training is instrumental in overall conditioning for fighters. If you dont have a strong core, your not strong.

To answer The Natural, im lucky in that i work in one of the best gyms in the UK for athelets and my timtable allows me to train in the mornings aswell as at night.

[Leigh]

I dissagree, i believe core training is instrumental in overall conditioning for fighters. If you dont have a strong core, your not strong.


agree that a strong core is essential. disagree you need to specifically train it

i also think strong arms and a good grip are important, but i don't do biceps curls

your core gets strong from heavy lifting, wrestling, kick boxing etc

[stapes360]

[QUOTE=Leigh;2437 (1)i also think strong arms and a good grip are important, but i don't do biceps curls

(2)your core gets strong from heavy liftin[/QUOTE]



(1)True, but bicep curls are not the only way to strengthen your arms. Im sure you do pull ups, row variations, olympic lifts? they all strengthen your pulling muscles (not pulling on sat nights!)


(2)Also true, especially in posterior chain exercises, however your Core incorperates multi directional movements (flexion, extension, rotation and lateral flexion) and i believe it is important to strengthen all of these movements. Im not saying everyone should isolate the core but a holistic strength programme should incorperate all planes.

*p.s, no, i dont know how to multi quote as i am a techno-phobe!!!*

[Leigh]

yep, that's my point, my arms and grip get plenty of work through heavy lifting and other training, without needing to isolate

i don't know anyone (but i guess they could be out there) that has developed their strength through heavy lifting and martial arts who has a weak core, regardless of whether or not they specifically work it

as examples, i do a lot of shrimping and other drills for guard work, lots of rotational work in striking, agility work etc. this undeniably works my core but i don't specifically work it

[stapes360]

So when your doing your heavy lifting what is your aim? for instance-
Squats- main aim -strengthen posterior chain and lower limbs
Weighted pull up- main aim- strengthen pulling muscles and stabilise rot cuff

Why would a fighter choose to prioritise strengthening their arms and legs but not prioritise strengthening their core?

I agree that you do lots of core exercises in your MMA training, but you also do lots of upper body strengthening when you wrestle/grapple etc.. you do lots of lower body strenthening with shoots/wrestling/thai etc.. so your argument against training your core could be used for training any part of your body!

[Leigh]

no, my goal when doing squats (i don't really do them any more) is to get stronger at lifting. i'm not focusing on the muscles at all. same with weighted chins - i want to get stronger at pulling

squatting will, of course, involve working the muscles in the legs but also the muscles in the core (actually it will work just about every part of your body, to some degree)

i lift for function, not for muscle training - that would take up far too much time

[stapes360]

At what point did i mention training muscle groups? your twisting words. And you just repeated what i said reguarding weighted pull ups- IE strengthening pulling muscles!

I too train for function only (and train all my clients for function) which is why i advocate core strength training, as ALL movements you do in MMA involve the core.

I just think the argument "i dont need to do any core strength training because i train my core during mma training" is pretty weak as this same argument could be used for youre whole body......."i dont need to do any strength training because i train my body during mma training"

[Leigh]

i never said you mentioned training muscle groups

no, i didn't repeat you. the difference is, i do not do chins to strengthen pulling MUSCLES, i do them to strengthen pulling - the function

when i do clean and press, its not to strengthen pressing MUSCLES, its to strengthen pressing. my muscles will get worked (including those in my core) but that's not my focus

i think my argument is anything but weak. i could also say that by your reasoning, you should also do biceps curls, triceps extensions, calf raises and hamstring curls

[Duchman]

I might be reading over it. Or not getting it.

Say i do judo, wrestling and thai. Lift twice a week. where i do pull ups, deadlifts, clean and press, row, squat bench etc.

What more exercises should/can i do to get my core stronger?

And what effect will the stronger core have on my left high kick?

[stapes360]

i never said you mentioned training muscle groups

no, i didn't repeat you. the difference is, i do not do chins to strengthen pulling MUSCLES, i do them to strengthen pulling - the function

when i do clean and press, its not to strengthen pressing MUSCLES, its to strengthen pressing. my muscles will get worked (including those in my core) but that's not my focus

i think my argument is anything but weak. i could also say that by your reasoning, you should also do biceps curls, triceps extensions, calf raises and hamstring curls

LOL!! you are just playing on words. You want to strengthen pressing-but not the MUSCLES that FUNCTION to facilitate pressing? I would love to know how that is possible!!

I may not have made my point clear, but, my reasoning would definately not suggest that you should do bicep curls as they are single muscle isolation exercise which is open chain, where as i am talking about compound, closed kinematic chain exercises.

Anyway, im not really interested in arguing every single aspect of a training programme as no one will EVER agree. But in my opinion (and as proven in my work) i believe core strength training is massively important.

[stapes360]

And what effect will the stronger core have on my left high kick?

It will make your left high kick like Cro cops...........No, wait....Like Gonzagas!!

[Leigh]

LOL!! you are just playing on words. You want to strengthen pressing-but not the MUSCLES that FUNCTION to facilitate pressing? I would love to know how that is possible!!

muscles are not the only factor in strength, otherwise bodybuilders would be the strongest men in the world


But in my opinion (and as proven in my work) i believe core strength training is massively important.

i've no doubt you do have a very strong core, as you lift and train hard. but so do plenty of others (including myself) who don't do any specific core work

[stapes360]

i've no doubt you do have a very strong core, as you lift and train hard. but so do plenty of others (including myself) who don't do any specific core work

I actually wasnt reffring to myself, i meant the people i train/rehab, but cheers! And also i know you have a strong core (as do many others), im not trying to say otherwise, im just putting my opinions across that are based on experience as well as qualification (not saying yours arent).

Cheers.

[Duchman]

It will make your left high kick like Cro cops...........No, wait....Like Gonzagas!!

Im not trolling.

As my left highkick is one of my strongest weapons.

Lets say i think a some hours away from kicking, punching pads/bags etc, or combine How would doing core work help me and what exercises would i need to do?

[Kaan Sencer]

Im not trolling.

As my left highkick is one of my strongest weapons.

Lets say i think a some hours away from kicking, punching pads/bags etc, or combine How would doing core work help me and what exercises would i need to do?

its pretty obvious but squats and deadlifts are very necesary, they work the core very well, and are imo two of the most functional exercises around, too bad i hate squats and have natrually tight hamstring so i cant balance too well...

has anyone ever tried kicking with resistance tubes bands? would this work, obviously doing it slow to avoid hyper extension

[Kaan Sencer]

why does everyone always ignore my posts on here, makes me feel upset and unwanted :( come on you meanies

[Maccavelli]

Most of the time preforming an athletic movement with external resistance fucks up the motor pattern.

I think the torsos key role is in the prevention of rotation as opposed to dynamic movement. With this opinion i feel its appropriate to add in some plank variations and some other stuff to a program which train this aspect.

If im wrong these movements are still pretty useful for teaching correct spinal positioning which is neccessay for squating and deadlifting anyhow. But i dont think i am.

[Leigh]

why does everyone always ignore my posts on here, makes me feel upset and unwanted :( come on you meanies

because they have no relevance to the conversation and are often wrong. not trying to be rude, just answering your question

[Duchman]

its pretty obvious but squats and deadlifts are very necesary, they work the core very well, and are imo two of the most functional exercises around, too bad i hate squats and have natrually tight hamstring so i cant balance too well...

has anyone ever tried kicking with resistance tubes bands? would this work, obviously doing it slow to avoid hyper extension


Yes i do squats and deadlifts..

Im asking what will specific core work extra do to me. If i hit the bag, pads, body belft for round.. My core seems to alot more work in. espcialy when working loads body stuff.

Also i can do those roll out wheels quite easy

[Kaan Sencer]

because they have no relevance to the conversation and are often wrong. not trying to be rude, just answering your question

ok fair enough but what about the questions?

[Kaan Sencer]

Most of the time preforming an athletic movement with external resistance fucks up the motor pattern.

I think the torsos key role is in the prevention of rotation as opposed to dynamic movement. With this opinion i feel its appropriate to add in some plank variations and some other stuff to a program which train this aspect.

If im wrong these movements are still pretty useful for teaching correct spinal positioning which is neccessay for squating and deadlifting anyhow. But i dont think i am.

i have heard that it fucks with the motor pattern, but if it is done at the same speed would'nt be the same kinda?

[Kaan Sencer]

Yes i do squats and deadlifts..

Im asking what will specific core work extra do to me. If i hit the bag, pads, body belft for round.. My core seems to alot more work in. espcialy when working loads body stuff.

Also i can do those roll out wheels quite easy

i am often wrong so giving out advice wouldnt be very good

[Truthseeker]

There is no unequivocal evidence that core training improves sports performance.

The original core training work in physical therapy was used for diagnositics - and this application is useful for athletes. I'd advocate core training at the start of a training programme for assessment purposes - which could then be used to plan the specific areas for development. For example if an athlete has a injury or a problem performing a particular movement in which certain core muscles are activated then core training is useful for them.

[DetoxGuru.com]

your core is what ties your body together its totally imperative to be a good mma fighter.

[Truthseeker]

Before "core training" started to become fashionable , top athletes in other sports never had a problem with their core, because it was getting trained anyway.

Now people seem to be jumping on it like its some magic pill. It aint. Seperate core exercises can be useful but not essential to solve specific problems somebody may be having.

I bet in 10-20 years time some other fashionable fitness concept will come along and people will start saying thats imperative for MMA too.

[Leigh]

Mark is correct. "Core" is just a silly word anyway - what does it mean? Your abs? Your lower back? Your trunk? I lump it in with the term "semi-pro"

Anyone who can't do a sit up has more serious problems than doing the sit up in the first place

[Truthseeker]

There's no agreed definition in the academic literature. Some limit it to the torso - abs and lower back - but others extend the definition to include shoulders and upper arms down to the knees.

Likewise there is no agreed way of assessing core strength - without which all you have is qualitative judgments - "yeah - i think i should do this coz its fashonable " - rather than basing decisions on a more objective , scientific criteria.

If a fighter does get their core reliably assessed and trains a specific set of exercises then there's still the issue of transfering that to performance and attributing improvements to that and not something else. If the test is general then it may not be specific for MMA. On the other hand if a specific " core" test for MMA movements was devised (none has) it would be counfounded with technique. These are some of the reasons no clear cut evidence has been found for effects of core training on sport performance (not just other tests or exercises)

For this reason the effect size is very small (i.e the meaninfull contribution of core training - seperated from other components that also contribute to performance - Psychological aspects, aerobic fitness, technique, power - is very small). This is a problem for any scientific experimental design looking for practical quantitative effects.

[ocuana]

(long winded question) Leigh: in ur earlier responses to Stapes; was it a case of explaining - strengthening the pulling/pressing, by whatever muscle groups become involved, RATHER than isolating specific muscles/fibres in assumption that those are the muscles to do the job of the pull/press? My (lame) example being: my pull ups are strengthened by drilling the pull up, rather than training the (assumed correct) muscles individually because they need to be worked in unison to gain full development? The same as my core development: strengthening my abs/lower b ck doesnt ncsrly mean that my kicking will benefit? all that said, i STILL train my "core" seperately to (hopefully) lessen injury risk from being muscularly weak.

[Leigh]

to answer your question, yes

[Smiler]

Hi! Good thread guys, enjoyed reading it!

Leigh - bored today were we lol? Nicely kept the discussion going there...

I think 'core' training is very important. The first point I want to throw into the argument is my definition of 'core'. I say that every 'hinge' in the body has its core, and I would explain the core as the tendons and ligaments, the connective tissues around every hinge joint. Of course, the waist is the biggest hinge joint, but the other joints are just as important in my opinion.

Now, as Mark rightly alluded to, you need to periodise your training and 'core' work should find its rightful place. I also agree that your cores get worked quite nicely during athletic movements also. I do core work for two reasons:

1. To allow the flow of force through a body as efficiently as possible, ie. you can't be a fast runner unless you can connect your upper body to the lower.

2. Injury prevention. This is my biggest reason. I turn to super-slow and TRX suspension work specifically for this. I look to strengthen my cores through all ranges of motion. Take football for example. I had some success with a former Italian world cup player (friend of a friend) who had a knee injury, and we devised some workouts to strengthen his hinges up. Footballers generally are strong and don't get injuries when working in their usual planes of movement. The problem comes when they are tackled for example and their body is manouvred out of their usual movements - this seems to be where injuries are mostly incurred. By training the joints and the connective tissues to be strong in all directions helps to keep the joints stable better under these irregular forces. In our sport I would apply this kind of training at the preparation period prior to intense training, to allow the joints to better withstand the more 'sports-specific' training that will follow.

Remember, its not about what you do, but what you do that doesn't injure yourself at the same time!

Going back to the hinge at the waist though, I would also look to train my 'core' here in three ways. (as a simple generalisation!!!!)

1. Full hinge movements. The large, power movements such as jacks and situps, develping strength and power to pull the hinge closed and open. Summary - big power movements.

2. 'Armour plating'. Working the abs and lower back, the muscles that provide direct resistance to impact, crunches and back raises for example. Summary - smaller, more isolating movements.

3. Deep soft tissue. Working the stability and connective tissues 'in deep' way, planks, side planks, side planks with taps, classic stress positions. Summary - static, holding positions, or slow motion dynamic holding positions.

Just adding some thoughts to the discussion!

I gotta say, I'm really impressed with the way these discussions are going lately. No arguments or slanging when disagreements take place, opinions being put forward based on academic and practice and experience, and I keep getting led in new directions to study. Cheers guys!

Best regards,

Smiler

[DetoxGuru.com]

wouldnt leg raises be considered a reaonable objective measure of core strength?

[Smiler]

Hi!

Define strength?

Maximal?
Strength endurance?
Isometric?

What defines strength is how you perform an exercise...not the exercise...

Smiler

[Rob T]

I agree with Leigh... core strength is important but if you're doing the sort of training necessary for MMA (i.e. incl. wrestling, grappling, weightlighting) then whatever you want to define as your "core" should be getting trained enough.

[DetoxGuru.com]

guess i mean maximal.

[Smiler]

Hmmm...getting deeper down the chart now...

For 'maximal' you need to have the maximum load possible...

So do you load the feet with weights?

Or to increase the load do you increase the speed...

But then will you induce momentum and lessen the true measurement...

Argh!

Smiler

[Truthseeker]

Gary

I think the central issue is core training for injury prevention versus core training for sports performance. There needs to be a firm distinction between the two because i think as far as sports performance is concerned - for an already trained and conditioned fighter he will make more gains come fight night by concentrating on other psychological , technical and strategic aspects of training rather than core training.

Core training for injury prevention - there are lots of population groups - beginners, people coming back from injury or a lay off, sedentary people, older athletes , who will benefit from the core training you mention before they do more specific stuff. They can also be used for assessment purposes for an experienced athlete. No problem with that.

But for somebody who already has gained a solid foundation , then i think there'll get diminishing returns for effort that could have been better spent on areas which are more cutting edge in terms of actual performance.

Everybody who compete seriously has at least a good core - but there is more variance between people with regards to other areas that can also be the focus of training (Psychological, technical etc)- and its those areas that are more likely to provide an advantage come fight night.

I also think your definition is too parsimonious. Is it core strength? core endurance? neuromuscular control?

[Smiler]

Lol, you are the Vanessa Feltz of the forums! (I mean in respect to your use of language, not size!!!!)

Whereas I fully agree that the first concentration, the main focus should always be on improving performance first, I still get my clients and prescribe to myself to improve the cores as I described. I place injury prevention high in the priorities, as if you incurr an injury it can really hamper any training you are doing.

Injury factor apart, I fully agree with the diminishing returns principle for sure. And I'm pleased you've hit on psychological - its an area all too forgotten by fighters!

What I have to say is that the core training I prescribe can be done separate to other training, uses very little equipment or space requirements, and can be fitted into a week's training really simply without taking away from the remainder of the training. It can be carried out at times when gyms aren't available, time is short, no training partners etc...and as it can be slotted in to not affect the remainder of training sessions I think that every serious athlete should be able to do one core session each week...

And yep, you've just highlighted the complexity of sports science and how easy it is to put forward a generalised term! Yep, I do my training the core for strength, endurance and neuromuscular control...but they all tend towards each other too....

Nice post fella!

Smiler

[Truthseeker]

While the strength and endurance might lie along the same continuum, neuromuscular control is a different concept and fundamental to the other two. Even though they can't be totally isolated in whole body movements, exercises can be designed that place more demand on one component over the others - but in a lot of core training programs out there its not made clear.

Most people have an idea how to manipulate an exercise schedule to produce a higher strength or endurance demand - but not how to manipulate an exercise to produce a more neuromuscular control demand or even why the concept is so important in the first place.

The neuro-muscular control is integral to a whole bunch of things necessary to perform a smooth movement - before its even started - planning the strength required, timing of agonist and antagonists , expected consequences of completing the movement , balancing out forces within different body segments and coordinating all this within different brain areas. All this happens in between intending to do something and actually doing it - fractions of a second - and involves extensive feedback and feedforward loops within the brain and spinal cord to and from postural groups and prime movers. During the learning stages of a movement or coming back from an injury these connections need to be established again - which is why core training is essential for these people. Also Feedforward loops are crucial for open skilled sports , and help lay the foundation for anticipatory skills which is one of the most important psychological skills a fighter can have.

The exercises to develop these processes are not always the same as those to develop strength and endurance. Even within an exercise that appears the same - certain manipulations can be made to stress neuromuscular control - depending on what you wanted to train - as you said - it depends on how you do it - but also i'd say on what people understand by the mechanisms involved. I'm not being pedantic for the sake of it - It's important to have a precise and clear understanding of the mechanisms to be able to identify exercise manipulations to target those processes and also to be able to evaluate properly other training exercises rather than just following it coz person X says its good or because that fighters doing it - which seems to be some peoples fall back position.

[taffdragon]

im gonna have to go back to sherdog to get training info, this forum getting way to intelligent for me ;)

so would training things like cleans and deadlifts and strengthening the abs work the core then practice sport specific moves to adapt that strength to your sport. or build core strength with sport specific moves first off? sorry if its been explained allready and i missed it.