Carlson Gracie BJJ & Helio Gracie BJJ

[Jogs D]

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/?go=forum_framed.posts&forum=1&thread=484785&page=1&pc=89

Great discussion on the UG regarding the differences between Carlson's and Helio's style of BJJ...

Surprisingly for the UG it's actually a proper discussion - no childish insults/shit-talking etc. I thought it was a very interesting read - just wondered what your opinions are on this subject...

[steve_langford]

As a BJJ practicioner I really should know more about this subject but Im still gonna give it ago and say that the Helio Gracie BJJ is more 'self defence' Royce Gracie type stuff.
Carlson Gracie BJJ is more like what you see on todays mats? With all the funky guards and more aggression?

[david5]

not sure carlson emphasised funky guards, but defo emphasised a top game and using your attributes to their full effect.

but i don't claim to know more than what i've read so won't say anymore

[steve_langford]

yeah the fuky guards bit was a bit silly... but you get the jist of what im saying.

[Duchman]

Im from a carlson school.. and obviously guard is trained loads.. but stay on top! stay on top!

[BruceLeeMMAfighting.net]

Helio's Side was all about the little man being able to beat the big man (Helio vs Santana, etc). That superior technique is what is needed.

Carlson's philosophy is that the more well trained (stronger, better cardio, bigger) man will beat the less physically trained fighter if technique is fairly equal.

Although it is a broad generalization I think you can see this looking at the BJJ Tree:
http://www.bjjtree.com

Carlson's side (Carlson Gracie, Nova Uniao, Ricardo De La Riva, Brazilian Top Team, American Top Team) has probably produced the best BJJ MMA fighters (BJ Penn, Big Nog, Denis Kang, Thiago Alves, etc).

Now whether this is because Carlson's side actively recruits athletes and physical specimens and opens it's doors to fighters or is a result of the training methods is debatable. I think it is probably both. Take ATT for example (which is Ricardo Liborio through Carlson Gracie Sr.) Those guys (Jorge Santiago, Gleison Thibau, JZ Calvancanti) are known to massively cut weight (30 lbs) to gain an advantage or sometimes even failing to make weight (Thiago Alves, Wilson Gouveia) to gain an advantage.

[The Natural]

i love carlsons out look on things..

basically (and i use this loosely as im no expert) smash ur opponent.. a broad generalisation and maybe somewhat inaccurate but that was the message that i came away with..

maybe simon could shed some light on the carlson gracie philosphy??

[Simon Hayes]

Carlson's style is all about fighting for a dominant position, a position that in a real street fight or MMA match will keep you out of harms way. Fight from the top and finish the fight with a submission.
Guard should be used if top position cannot be attained,but not in favour of top position.Of course guard is very important,and an aggressive guard,searching for sweeps and submissions will unsettle and break the posture of your opponent,but playing guard puts you in bottom posiiton
and when strikes are allowed,guard puts you at a disadvantage,so it shouldn't be taken in favour of top position.
At all times during the fight,whether a jiu jitsu match,mma fight,or street fight every effort should be made to impose every ounce of body weight
and pressure available to wear down your opponent.The pressure imposed should be such that when you finally go for the submission your opponent is pleased he can finally tap.

The lighter guys in the Carlson Team were forced to develop amazing guards because they were rarely able to take top position against guys like Amaury Bitteti and Mario Sperry who are guard passing machines.

Basically,The Natural got it right in the last post when he said Carlson's philosophy was to smash the opponent.

Carlson was also a very keen advocate of cross training and encouraged his guys to study boxing and wrestling as well as Judo and train with weights..This was rare in the Gracie family at the time,where it was felt that
Gracie Jiu Jitsu was enough on its own.

In London we honour Carlson's legacy by offering Muay Thai,mma and Judo
as well as weights to our students and encouraging them to train in them at no extra charge.

Carlson was also,arguably, the first member of the family to share everything he knew with his students.

2 great stories about Carlson.When he was a young teenager,Helio and Carlos set him up for a Vale Tudo fight on a concrete tennis court to settle a dispute.They expected him to use the jiu jitsu they had taught him.
He got the takedown,mounted and then proceeded to punch his opponents face in until he tapped,not use an arm bar or choke.

During the great Jiu Jitsu vs Luta Livre wars that were televised Vale Tudo
grudge matches,Carlson was chosen by the Gracie family to put together
a team of the best jiu jitsu fighters to defend the arts honour.These fighters came from different teams,not just Carlsons,the guys were handpicked as the best there were available.
Much to the shock of the guys chosen from different teams (but not to Carlson's own guys) Carlson instructed the team that he didn't want the Jiu Jitsu team to submit their Luta Livre opponents with anything but strikes.
He told the Luta Livre guys that his team were so tough and that Jiu Jitsu was so dominant that they wouldn't even have to use it to win,that his Jiu Jitsu team would just smash the Luta Livre guys faces in.


We talk nowadays about No Gi Judo,and Karo-Well watch Carlson's Judo ability without a Kimono to grip in this fight.

OOOOSSSS

[Simon Hayes]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=w_ILjwsTdC0

[Jogs D]

One interesting quote which I read, which I feel sums things up...:-

"When Rickson rolled with you, he flowed like water. When Carlson rolled, he burned you like fire"....

That pretty much says it all really...

[steve_langford]

that quote is great..

[The Natural]

Carlson's style is all about fighting for a dominant position, a position that in a real street fight or MMA match will keep you out of harms way. Fight from the top and finish the fight with a submission.
Guard should be used if top position cannot be attained,but not in favour of top position.Of course guard is very important,and an aggressive guard,searching for sweeps and submissions will unsettle and break the posture of your opponent,but playing guard puts you in bottom posiiton
and when strikes are allowed,guard puts you at a disadvantage,so it shouldn't be taken in favour of top position.
At all times during the fight,whether a jiu jitsu match,mma fight,or street fight every effort should be made to impose every ounce of body weight
and pressure available to wear down your opponent.The pressure imposed should be such that when you finally go for the submission your opponent is pleased he can finally tap.

The lighter guys in the Carlson Team were forced to develop amazing guards because they were rarely able to take top position against guys like Amaury Bitteti and Mario Sperry who are guard passing machines.

Basically,The Natural got it right in the last post when he said Carlson's philosophy was to smash the opponent.

Carlson was also a very keen advocate of cross training and encouraged his guys to study boxing and wrestling as well as Judo and train with weights..This was rare in the Gracie family at the time,where it was felt that
Gracie Jiu Jitsu was enough on its own.

In London we honour Carlson's legacy by offering Muay Thai,mma and Judo
as well as weights to our students and encouraging them to train in them at no extra charge.

Carlson was also,arguably, the first member of the family to share everything he knew with his students.

2 great stories about Carlson.When he was a young teenager,Helio and Carlos set him up for a Vale Tudo fight on a concrete tennis court to settle a dispute.They expected him to use the jiu jitsu they had taught him.
He got the takedown,mounted and then proceeded to punch his opponents face in until he tapped,not use an arm bar or choke.

During the great Jiu Jitsu vs Luta Livre wars that were televised Vale Tudo
grudge matches,Carlson was chosen by the Gracie family to put together
a team of the best jiu jitsu fighters to defend the arts honour.These fighters came from different teams,not just Carlsons,the guys were handpicked as the best there were available.
Much to the shock of the guys chosen from different teams (but not to Carlson's own guys) Carlson instructed the team that he didn't want the Jiu Jitsu team to submit their Luta Livre opponents with anything but strikes.
He told the Luta Livre guys that his team were so tough and that Jiu Jitsu was so dominant that they wouldn't even have to use it to win,that his Jiu Jitsu team would just smash the Luta Livre guys faces in.


We talk nowadays about No Gi Judo,and Karo-Well watch Carlson's Judo ability without a Kimono to grip in this fight.

OOOOSSSS

Simon,

Excellent post..inspirational stuff:cool:

Thanx..

[creonte]

rolls was best gracie.helio an carlson teach him.he very crazee guy.

[Bicho]

Carlson was also a very keen advocate of cross training and encouraged his guys to study boxing and wrestling as well as Judo and train with weights..This was rare in the Gracie family at the time,where it was felt that
Gracie Jiu Jitsu was enough on its own.



I agree with pretty much everything in your post except the above quote. Carlson encouraged his guys to train boxing but not so much wrestling and Judo. It was Rolls who actually was the biggest advocate of cross training of the Gracies and learned alot of wrestling from Bob Anderson. He was credited the most for incorporated wrestling and Judo into BJJ. He introduced many sambo techniques to BJJ and played an instrumental role in the development of the BJJ of today. After all the other Gracies saw how Rolls was benefiting in tournaments they started cross training.

[Simon Hayes]

You are basing all your claims on what you have read in 'The Gracie Way'.

Yes,Roll's was an advocate of Cross Training.Who trained Rolls? Carlson.

Have you watched any of Carlson's fights?

Have you spoken to any of his Black Belts about the training regimens he had them follow?

'The Gracie Way' is a great book.Inspirational stuff,but it is one mans opinion of the Gracie's (Kid Pelligro's) and his 'favourite' Gracie's get a better
press than others.

If i remember correctly,Relson and Rillion aren't even mentioned.

[Duchman]

lol flexa told me. Roberto Leite took several black belts from carlson gracie and trained them in wrestling everyday for a year. Took them also out to the wrestsling championships of brasilia (city) where everyone places first if i remember correctly

[david5]

pretty sure george mehdi trained a lot of carlson's guys in judo

[Duchman]

also this whole vs thingy is pretty darn stupid..but heck.. its the same sport.

both camps got guys who where well rounded in top and bottem or beter at one way.
Delariva guard.. is a guard for a reason.

[Jogs D]

You are basing all your claims on what you have read in 'The Gracie Way'.

Yes,Roll's was an advocate of Cross Training.Who trained Rolls? Carlson.

Have you watched any of Carlson's fights?

Have you spoken to any of his Black Belts about the training regimens he had them follow?

'The Gracie Way' is a great book.Inspirational stuff,but it is one mans opinion of the Gracie's (Kid Pelligro's) and his 'favourite' Gracie's get a better
press than others.

If i remember correctly,Relson and Rillion aren't even mentioned.


Not sure about Rillion but I hear Relson had a big-time bust-up with Peligro, hence he wasn't included in the book. Shame really because going by Renzo's documentary I'm sure there'd be some interesting stories to tell along with the fact he brought BJJ/MMA to Hawaii.

Also I hear Relson's Jiu-Jitsu is also about smashing your opponent and more geared to street-fighting and quite similar to Carlsons (unlike Helio/Rorion)....

[Mike Bishop]

I haven't watched this Renzo documentary that everyone's raving about yet. What did you think of it ?

[Jogs D]

I haven't watched this Renzo documentary that everyone's raving about yet. What did you think of it ?

I thought it was really good.... I recommend it... :)

[Benws]

You are basing all your claims on what you have read in 'The Gracie Way'.

Yes,Roll's was an advocate of Cross Training.Who trained Rolls? Carlson.

Have you watched any of Carlson's fights?

Have you spoken to any of his Black Belts about the training regimens he had them follow?

'The Gracie Way' is a great book.Inspirational stuff,but it is one mans opinion of the Gracie's (Kid Pelligro's) and his 'favourite' Gracie's get a better
press than others.

If i remember correctly,Relson and Rillion aren't even mentioned.

Are you sure it was Carlson who taught rolls?

I'm sure he had an influence on Rolls, but seeing as Rolls was raised by Helio i always assumed Helio probably would have been the biggest influence on his jiujitsu.

Rolls did train and teach at Carlsons academy thou.

[Simon Hayes]

Roll's was sent to Carlson by Helio.

[Bicho]

You are basing all your claims on what you have read in 'The Gracie Way'.

Yes,Roll's was an advocate of Cross Training.Who trained Rolls? Carlson.

Have you watched any of Carlson's fights?

Have you spoken to any of his Black Belts about the training regimens he had them follow?

'The Gracie Way' is a great book.Inspirational stuff,but it is one mans opinion of the Gracie's (Kid Pelligro's) and his 'favourite' Gracie's get a better
press than others.

If i remember correctly,Relson and Rillion aren't even mentioned.


Well, I have read the Gracie Way, and no I don't believe everything Kid wrote in that book, but I've spent six weeks at Oswaldo Alves school in Rio and I can guarantee you without any doubt that if you asked him he would tell you Rolls was a much bigger advocate of cross training than any other Gracie family member. He was better at Judo and wrestling than ANY of Carlson's top students. And I can also guarantee you that he would put what Rolls' contributed to JJ up against ANYONE else including Carlson.

I have seen Carlson fight in videos. He did not compete in wrestling tournaments. Rolls did. I did not claim Carlson didn't train Rolls but Rolls learned many things from other sources as well.

BTW, the very first JJ school I signed up at was Marcelo Alonso's who is one of Carlson's best instructors in the US.

[Simon Hayes]

Yes,and Roll's learn't the importance of cross training from his time being taught by Carlson.That opened his eyes to stuff that he hadn't been exposed to with Helio.
When Roll's started teaching he took the idea of cross training to another level.
Carlson and Rolls are from different era's,and Carlson's time was before Roll's.

[Jogs D]

Also I think Rolls' cross-training was more 'sports' orientated ie. Judo, Wrestling, Sambo etc., where-as Carlson recommended Boxing and Wrestling for cross-training - his style was more geared for Vale Tudo fighting....

[TheJuice]

Was just thinking about this earlier and wondering if any Jiu-Jitsu geeks knew.

As we know Kano developed the belt system, BJJ followed suit, my question is where did purple belt come from then?

As Judo belts go white, yellow, orange, green, blue, brown and black, where did BJJ get a purple belt from???

[Mike Bishop]

I'd like to know that as well

TTT for anyone who knows.

[Augustus Gloop]

white yellow orange green blue brown black is the modern belt system

purple was used around the time that jujitsu was introduced to Brazil

http://judoinfo.com/obi.htm