Amateur careers?

[ReD_mIst]

Why do so few fighters value their amateur career?

It's not a race to turn pro. Amateur careers allow a fighter to actually learn their trade. A good and varied amateur career, enables a fighter to develop and will lead to an even better pro career.

In Amateur boxing, fighters can have dozens of fights before considering turning pro, but in MMA it appears fighters have 2-3 amateur fights and then are eager to turn pro. Why is that?

[DanCrase]

I've already set my mind on atleast 10 amateur fights before I consider turning pro.

Our own Jimmy Saville has seemed to do it right, he's got 12 (I think) amateur fights under his belt

[steve_langford]

What if someones ground game is more suited to pro? i.e the headshots?

What if a person weak point is striking so his best chance of winning the fight is GnP?

could this be a factor?

[ReD_mIst]

What if someones ground game is more suited to pro? i.e the headshots?

What if a person weak point is striking so his best chance of winning the fight is GnP?

could this be a factor?

That's an issue with no head shot rules, not with an amateur career. There are amateur shows out there with real MMA rules, so that would be my counter.

(It does bring us back to the stupid diverse rules we have in the UK, which make the AM and PRO sports very disjointed.... if we had a governing body, maybe they could make the rules similar and make the AM MMA options more accessable)

[widge milward]

its a must this day in age.

I wish when i first started MMA that there was more Amateur shows, just to be able to learn the skills and be a more complete fighter. that is why i think alot of the "old school" guys have mixed records. there were learning the trade in the pro ranks.

[ReD_mIst]

I've already set my mind on atleast 10 amateur fights before I consider turning pro.

Our own Jimmy Saville has seemed to do it right, he's got 12 (I think) amateur fights under his belt

Scraps is a little different, as he was a junior, so had to fight AM. I think a real good example of a fighter he developed in an amateur career and then moved on to a very successful pro career is Alex Owen

Alex has a 20-2-7 Am record, 10-0-0 in SP and went on to a 11-1 pro record... with that loss being his last fight. 30+ AM fights is an excellent basis for a successful MMA career (although I would suggest 10-15 as a good average)

There is zero downside to taking a longer amateur career. The experience will mean that the UK's pro fighters will be even better!

[steve_langford]

please let there be a governing body one day.....

Ive heard from coaches in the past that the reason they want their fighters to fight amateur first is because thay dont want them fighting with head shots on the ground.

Where do you stand on those rules Aaron? (amateur with head shots on the ground)

Is not just a PRO fight ........ for free?

[ReD_mIst]

C'mon, everyone knows I think AM MMA should have headshots... GnP is what makes it MMA.

I don't think it's pro for free, simply because it should be a lower level of fighter, with less experience. That's one of the key points. Amateur fights should be less experienced fighters, with less knowledge and less training. They fight AM, building up the experience, etc and when the time is right they fight PRO.

What we get is a much more populated AM sport, which demonstrates the credibility of MMA and shows a real grass roots development, followed by a much more skilled and experienced pro division. So instead of having fighters fighting for world titles who have had 5 fights (!!!!), they have a long AM career behind them and can demonstrate some experieince and skill.

I really can't see a downside. Better AM sport, more credibility, more accessibility and a better pro sport with more skilled fighters.

[ReD_mIst]

Ive heard from coaches in the past that the reason they want their fighters to fight amateur first is because thay dont want them fighting with head shots on the ground.


They should do submission wrestling or maybe the no headshot rules are more suited to interclubs. Personally, remove the headshots and you no longer have MMA. But accept that opinion on this is divided

[steve_langford]

ReD_mIst and Kainer2 for leaders of the governing body!!

[widge milward]

Aaron is correct,

its a whole different world when some cunt is punching you in the teeth whilst your trying to work a sub from you back. lol

[ReD_mIst]

ReD_mIst and Kainer2 for leaders of the governing body!!

lol. I am more a fan of an MMA Dictatorship, where I tell everyone how it will be.... from my throne of skulls.

But seriously, I doubt that a governing body would want me involved. I'm pretty sure I upset more people than I unite!

[steve_langford]

just for the record , does anyone know which shows do amateur with ground head shots?

[widge milward]

not 100% but FCFN / UK1 may do.

[ReD_mIst]

just for the record , does anyone know which shows do amateur with ground head shots?

That would be good to know.

I know that UK-1 used to have head shot rules and I believe that some shows have used the "B Class Pro" definition to cover the rules set. Although I believe it would be easier to simply have AM Sport and PRO sport.

Any other AM promoters have suitable AM rules?

[DanCrase]

I can honestly say that when I start competing I'm gonna want my am fights to as closely resemble pro rules as poss. Otherwise it's almost like learning a different sport and not complete preperation for a pro career.

[ReD_mIst]

I can honestly say that when I start competing I'm gonna want my am fights to as closely resemble pro rules as poss. Otherwise it's almost like learning a different sport and not complete preperation for a pro career.

Bingo. It is exactly like learning another sport. The stirkes are no only something additional offesively, but also defensively. In MMA you not only have to learn how to do an armbar or triangle from guard (like in BJJ), but you have to learn to do it whilst your opponent is throwing strikes).

There should be no real difference between AM and PRO, except for the level/experience of the fighters. (There maybe reason to consider the removal of neck cranks, heel hooks, elbows.... but I could be swayed either way on this)

[Le_Divin_Marquis]

It's a vicious circle. Very few fighters and not all the coaches understand the importance of an amateur carreer, and as a result a lot of guys turn pro a lot sooner than they should.
Therefore, as soon as you've had a few victories there's no one left that would give you a good fight in amateur/semi pro. And you know a lot of people think you're a sandbagger, someone who's just here to pick easy fights and it's not easy to accept.

[Yetiman]

I have not actually had a fight yet and this was/is my take on my own situation.

I never knew there was an amateur level in MMA, all I knew was MMA as you see it on TV and as most people talk about it. I then found this forum and started reading more and found this thing called Amateur. I thought brilliant this is what I want to do, this way I can get a taste in it and experience. Its all well and good knowing how to fight people in a gym and it is all about experience in my opinion but fighting in the gym and in a cage/ring are two different things in my opinion.

I want to take my time, I was all in a rush to start fighting, but what is the rush in going pro, I do not want to go pro straight away get smashed up for 10 fights before I start doing well as it took me 10 fights to gain my experience. I would much rather get to the stage where I feel ready and do 10 amateur fights and see how I feel, if I am doing well then I will go semi pro and see how I do.

You need to stand out from the crowd to get noticed so make all your silly mistakes as a amma when the spot light is not on you as much.

I will say this and this is not being bitter. I applied for fighting hurts ( I was the big fat guy Thor ) I am so glad I did not get chosen, I was no where near ready and I thank my lucky stars for that, but back then before I found this place I really had no idea about anything and I am now learning and improving in leaps and bounds.


--edit--

I know people rip it out of Pro K, but I think what they have is also a great way of doing thing, they have the same rules across the board but with different levels of fighters, this way you can learn the sport against people of your own level, also another decent way of doing things imo.

[ReD_mIst]

Good post Thor and the right approach. There's no race to be a pro and get on the UFC. I think fighters should naturally think about an amateur career of 2-4 years, before taking the plunge into pro. Think how good our pro fighters would be with that additional experience and also, I believe it would make the amateur sport more interesting.

I can't comment on Pro Kumite, unfortunately I'm not a fan and don't have much positive to add, so it's better that I don't get involved in any PK discussions

[simpy]

The biggist problem for some people is simply that the no head shot amature rules may not fit there style. I have had 2 amt fights one draw and one lose but really felt out of my game without head shots. Some may have seen me KO my opponent at uk mma league event in nottingham this was because without head shots i was lost, Being from a muay thai background striking is natural and instinctive to me. For this reason i am really looking to turn semi pro asap Ok so i am not saying i have no ground game i train with a great team and am building my hole game but i will always be a striker. I would love to be able to compete at an amature level but with head shots but the events just arnt out there for it so semi pro and pro is often the only way to go as soon as possible

[Allan Shrek]

Because there is a greater demand for MMA shows than there is availability of good pro fighters there will be promoters who need pro fighters regardless of level. If you have the choice of being paid or not being paid to do the same thing then what are you going to chose?

With this lack of competition for places there is no need to invest time and effort in amatuer career in the same way there is in boxing where a strong amatuer background is the best path to the pro ranks.

So what is the incentive to have an amatuer career beyond not messing up your pro record?

As for different rule sets, these are a neccessity to differentiate between Pro and Amatuer. Boxing rules are different between the ranks and MMA should follow the same path. Shorter fights, heavier gloves and removal of dangerous techniques are all required for amatuer MMA but I do agree that head shots are required to make it MMA (says the guy with the 4 semi-pro fights and only 1 pro fight to his name).

Only a governing body who has certain medical requirements for pro fights will allow the changes people are discussing and we all know the governing body is just a dream.

[Rich Austin]

If everybody did it the 'Alex Owen' way, the UK would be a very strong force in MMA, Alex did what most fighters dont have the patience to do. I also think age has a part to play in it, If a fighter is over age X then obv they will be restrained some what with 'time' not on their side to perhaps get a good amateur background before going pro.

As Aaron said though a good amount of time of at least a couple of years Amateur would be beneficial some what and stand the fighter in good stead for a Pro career.

The other thing against going Amateur though is the head shots, head shots ARE a part of skills in MMA as in my mind are elbows, the complete GnP game so I can also understand why fighters dont want to search and wait around for the one or two shows that allow head shots as they are few and far between.

As for Semi Pro huff dont swear lol
Amateur and Pro thats all Im saying lol

[ReD_mIst]

The biggist problem for some people is simply that the no head shot amature rules may not fit there style. I have had 2 amt fights one draw and one lose but really felt out of my game without head shots. Some may have seen me KO my opponent at uk mma league event in nottingham this was because without head shots i was lost, Being from a muay thai background striking is natural and instinctive to me. For this reason i am really looking to turn semi pro asap Ok so i am not saying i have no ground game i train with a great team and am building my hole game but i will always be a striker. I would love to be able to compete at an amature level but with head shots but the events just arnt out there for it so semi pro and pro is often the only way to go as soon as possible

Simpy, you don't appear to have a problem with the concept of an amateur career, but rather the basterdised rule set that appear of have developed for amateurs to fight under. I agree with that, although it is a seperate discussion. There are shows that offer reall amateur MMA, i.e. with headshots. Would you agree that would be a good start to an MMA career

[ReD_mIst]

Because there is a greater demand for MMA shows than there is availability of good pro fighters there will be promoters who need pro fighters regardless of level. If you have the choice of being paid or not being paid to do the same thing then what are you going to chose?

With this lack of competition for places there is no need to invest time and effort in amatuer career in the same way there is in boxing where a strong amatuer background is the best path to the pro ranks.

So what is the incentive to have an amatuer career beyond not messing up your pro record?

As for different rule sets, these are a neccessity to differentiate between Pro and Amatuer. Boxing rules are different between the ranks and MMA should follow the same path. Shorter fights, heavier gloves and removal of dangerous techniques are all required for amatuer MMA but I do agree that head shots are required to make it MMA (says the guy with the 4 semi-pro fights and only 1 pro fight to his name).

Only a governing body who has certain medical requirements for pro fights will allow the changes people are discussing and we all know the governing body is just a dream.

Your first point doesn't make any sense. If we had a solid amateur sport, then promoters wouldn't be hunting for inexperienced novice pros, they would put on amateur shows and everything would be wonderful. The sport at the moment is like "The emporers new clothes"..... fighters turn pro quickly because they aren't getting the right amateur opportunities, but the promotors aren't putting on amateur shows, because there aren't enough fighters taking the amateur route.

As for fighters choosing to be paid over not being paid, isn't that the same choice that boxers have, yet they still manage to understand the value of an amateur career. MMA fighters shouldn't be chasing the pro tag, they should take their career a bit more seriously and aim to learn their trade through the amateur ranks, before becoming a better pro.

I don't have an issue with the comments on the rules. There should probably be some differences between AM MMA and PRO MMA, in order to protect the novice fighters

I still don't see anything but positives in developing the amateur ranks, encouraging fighters to take that path and therefore imporving the sport at both amateur and pro level...... but it will take fighters, coaches and promotors to all work towards this.... I doubt that will happen...

... at the end of the day it is the fighters choice if he wants to grow as an amateur, before turning pro and I don't believe many fighters will take that route as they are focused on being in the UFC.... even if that means too soon

[ReD_mIst]

I'd be interested in reading some more comments from fighters.... why wouldn't a fighter want a good amateur grounding before turning pro? What's the benefit of jumping straight in at the pro level?

[AVI4]

Would you say the same can be done as a semi pro? Even with the no gnp rules, you can still build a decent foundation of experience to take with you into a pro fight. Thats what im doing anyway.

[Brett]

Good thread,

I personally think having some amateur and semi-pro experience before going pro is a good thing and intend to have at least 10 fights at those levels before even thinking about going pro.

however i do also think there should be a slightly different rule set for amateur to offer more protection to novice fighters, otherwise if you use the same rules as pro you carry the risk of very experienced guys choosing to fight amateur and then seriously hurting novices.

Aaron, you point out that the no head shot MMA is pretty much useless, yet you say that Alex Owen is a perfect example of how it should be done, he had 29 fights under no head shot rules before progressing so you've contradicted yourself.

[Allan Shrek]

Your first point doesn't make any sense. If we had a solid amateur sport, then promoters wouldn't be hunting for inexperienced novice pros, they would put on amateur shows and everything would be wonderful. The sport at the moment is like "The emporers new clothes"..... fighters turn pro quickly because they aren't getting the right amateur opportunities, but the promotors aren't putting on amateur shows, because there aren't enough fighters taking the amateur route.

As for fighters choosing to be paid over not being paid, isn't that the same choice that boxers have, yet they still manage to understand the value of an amateur career. MMA fighters shouldn't be chasing the pro tag, they should take their career a bit more seriously and aim to learn their trade through the amateur ranks, before becoming a better pro.

I don't have an issue with the comments on the rules. There should probably be some differences between AM MMA and PRO MMA, in order to protect the novice fighters

I still don't see anything but positives in developing the amateur ranks, encouraging fighters to take that path and therefore imporving the sport at both amateur and pro level...... but it will take fighters, coaches and promotors to all work towards this.... I doubt that will happen...

... at the end of the day it is the fighters choice if he wants to grow as an amateur, before turning pro and I don't believe many fighters will take that route as they are focused on being in the UFC.... even if that means too soon


It isn't the same choice as boxers have as there are currently no benefits to an amatuer career beyond gaining experience.

The difference between boxing and MMA is there competition to become a pro boxer, they wont just pay any bum and there are licences etc. to be gained before you can take part in a pro boxing bout (ignoring unlicensed boxing as it's a nonsense) but there is not that barrier for people promoting or competing in pro MMA.

Plus due to boxing's status as an olympic sport there is council/government funding available to boxing gyms/boxers competing in high level competitions. There are well respected amatuer competitions both nationally and internationally in amatuer boxing.

None of these exist in amatuer MMA so where is the incentive to develop as an amatuer rather than as a pro?

Developing a strong amatuer base to increase the quality of UK fighters is a great idea but there is currently no incentive towards it or any mechanism to set it up without a governing body. We need an MMABC but we're not going to get one.

As to your last post about opinions from fighters, as someone who's just moving towards his second pro fight after a short (4 fight) semi-pro career I feel well placed to answer this.

There are no match ups at an amatuer or semi-pro level that are good for me and I would be sandbagging to fight AM/SP. There are no rewards in terms of prestige in winning AM/SP fights and if i want to fight under full rules I need to wait for the few shows that offer that to come around.

If there was a well developed amatuer circuit with good standards, good rules and responsible promoters I would get involved as that would be the way things are done. However to develop this would require a re-engineering or UK MMA.

[ReD_mIst]

Would you say the same can be done as a semi pro? Even with the no gnp rules, you can still build a decent foundation of experience to take with you into a pro fight. Thats what im doing anyway.

Personally I think Semi pro is a joke. What does that mean? it's like a half step between AM and Pro..... surely if we had a decent Amateur version of the sport, SP wouldn't be needed it all and novice inexperienced fighters like yourself would be able to stay focused in the amateurs until ready to go pro

[AVI4]

Personally I think Semi pro is a joke. What does that mean? it's like a half step between AM and Pro..... surely if we had a decent Amateur version of the sport, SP wouldn't be needed it all and novice inexperienced fighters like yourself would be able to stay focused in the amateurs until ready to go pro

Yeah, i agree mate, i just gotta work with what ive got though pal.

[ReD_mIst]

Good thread,

I personally think having some amateur and semi-pro experience before going pro is a good thing and intend to have at least 10 fights at those levels before even thinking about going pro.

however i do also think there should be a slightly different rule set for amateur to offer more protection to novice fighters, otherwise if you use the same rules as pro you carry the risk of very experienced guys choosing to fight amateur and then seriously hurting novices.

Aaron, you point out that the no head shot MMA is pretty much useless, yet you say that Alex Owen is a perfect example of how it should be done, he had 29 fights under no head shot rules before progressing so you've contradicted yourself.

You've tried to combine the 'rules' arguement, with the 'amateur career' arguement. This thread is about building experience and even though that experience may be in limited rules, I still think fighters should take their time and learn their sport as ana amateur, like Alex. I'd prefer that to be in a more realistic version of the rules... but that's not an option.

I haven't contradicted myself, as I started the thread to talk about 'amateur careers', not the amateur rule set... which has been discussed many many times before.

Ideal - 30 fights in AM with head shots, followed by a pro career
Acceptable in the current regime - 30 fights in assorted rules AM, followed by a pro career

[ReD_mIst]

Yeah, i agree mate, i just gotta work with what ive got though pal.

Cool, I hoped you would agree. Semi pro is such an odd thing..... just not needed

[AVI4]

I think i'm better off, given the current rule set, fighting at semi pro rather than amatuer as alot of amatuer is just sub grappling with kicks.

[ReD_mIst]

It isn't the same choice as boxers have as there are currently no benefits to an amatuer career beyond gaining experience.

The difference between boxing and MMA is there competition to become a pro boxer, they wont just pay any bum and there are licences etc. to be gained before you can take part in a pro boxing bout (ignoring unlicensed boxing as it's a nonsense) but there is not that barrier for people promoting or competing in pro MMA.

Plus due to boxing's status as an olympic sport there is council/government funding available to boxing gyms/boxers competing in high level competitions. There are well respected amatuer competitions both nationally and internationally in amatuer boxing.

None of these exist in amatuer MMA so where is the incentive to develop as an amatuer rather than as a pro?

Developing a strong amatuer base to increase the quality of UK fighters is a great idea but there is currently no incentive towards it or any mechanism to set it up without a governing body. We need an MMABC but we're not going to get one.

I think we both essentially agree, although some differences on the views of the value of an amateur career.

Experience is the key value for a fighter, plus, it's a sport.... enjoyment should be one of the values of an amateur sport.

I also agree on the governing body. but with the absence of such a thing, Shouldn't we self govern and help fighters see the value in the amateurs ranks?

[ReD_mIst]

I think i'm better off, given the current rule set, fighting at semi pro rather than amatuer as alot of amatuer is just sub grappling with kicks.


Yes, but that's the 'rules' argument, not the amateur career arguement. If we had a more realistic set of AM MMA rules established, then that would mean no reason for SP rules.

What is Semi Pro? My general understanding of the term is that it describes a professional who supplements his earnings with traditional employment. That describes most UK based MMA fighters. A professional fighter is a fighter who makes a living from fighting and an amateur is a fighter who earns nothing from the sport and is fighting for experieince and enjoyment.

I don't quite understand how UK MMA got to the point of using AM, SP and PRO to describe different sets of rules..... it isn't like that in the USA.

[widge milward]

...If only there was a governing body....

IMO Shooto have the best idea with there different "classes"

IMO there is no need to go straigh Pro unless you are someone who has vast experience in another martial art who has competed at an elite level. which i would still advise against to learn the necessary skills to be an MMA fighter.

But if this were the case it may be hard to get fights at the amateur level.

[Allan Shrek]

I've editted that post to add some stuff about why I don't fight amatuer or semi-pro anymore.

Essentially we agree but I believe there has to be more incentive to fight as an amatuer before most would consider it. Plus you need to realise you're dealing with a majority of "I'm a cage fighter look at my Mohawk and Tapout shirt" idiots and not the sort of people who are invovled in the sport for leisure culture. Some sort of barrier to entry is the only way to force them to fight amatuer and you can't set that up with the governing body. Until them it's fun seeing them get beat up off sensible fighters.

[AVI4]

Yes, but that's the 'rules' argument, not the amateur career arguement. If we had a more realistic set of AM MMA rules established, then that would mean no reason for SP rules.

What is Semi Pro? My general understanding of the term is that it describes a professional who supplements his earnings with traditional employment. That describes most UK based MMA fighters. A professional fighter is a fighter who makes a living from fighting and an amateur is a fighter who earns nothing from the sport and is fighting for experieince and enjoyment.

I don't quite understand how UK MMA got to the point of using AM, SP and PRO to describe different sets of rules..... it isn't like that in the USA.

Absolutely, in an ideal world if we had an established Amatuer system with little to no difference in the rule sets, then i doubt anyone would argue with you that it would be beneficial to first build up experience there, before turning professional.

[ReD_mIst]

I've editted that post to add some stuff about why I don't fight amatuer or semi-pro anymore.

Essentially we agree but I believe there has to be more incentive to fight as an amatuer before most would consider it. Plus you need to realise you're dealing with a majority of "I'm a cage fighter look at my Mohawk and Tapout shirt" idiots and not the sort of people who are invovled in the sport for leisure culture. Some sort of barrier to entry is the only way to force them to fight amatuer and you can't set that up with the governing body. Until them it's fun seeing them get beat up off sensible fighters.

I think we will struggle to every get a more out of amateur than experience, enjoyment and the potential of a more successful pro career. That's what amateur is about really.

Your correct with the average attitude being a problem, people want to be 'cage fighters' and therefore jump at the chance to fight pro. it does no one any benefit, not them, not their coach and not UK MMA. A governing body could attempt to control that, but we are years off having an all pervasice governing body that could enforce such regulation to all... even then, we only get licensed and un-licensed versions of the sport.

[ReD_mIst]

I guess promotors could help be asking fighters to have minimum AM experieince before letting them fight PRO. That would mean fighters have to fight AM in order to get the PRO fights... not sure if any promotors would do this though.

[AVI4]

I guess promotors could help be asking fighters to have minimum AM experieince before letting them fight PRO. That would mean fighters have to fight AM in order to get the PRO fights... not sure if any promotors would do this though.

That would be a good idea. I Hate to keep going back to the rules arguement but it is a part of the problem, this would only work if the promoters employed 'proper' amatuer rules as they should be, i.e with gnp.

[ReD_mIst]

That would be a good idea. I Hate to keep going back to the rules arguement but it is a part of the problem, this would only work if the promoters employed 'proper' amatuer rules as they should be, i.e with gnp.

I agree 100%... but, I've had the discussion and argument on that many times in the past and there are supporters for both sides. I find it funny that we love following the US lead on MMA, with the UFC, TUF, US coaches and training, etc. But we don't follow their lead on the AM ruleset....

[simpy]

Simpy, you don't appear to have a problem with the concept of an amateur career, but rather the basterdised rule set that appear of have developed for amateurs to fight under. I agree with that, although it is a seperate discussion. There are shows that offer reall amateur MMA, i.e. with headshots. Would you agree that would be a good start to an MMA career

I do mate. I would love to be able to fight 10 or 15 fights at amt before i progress up with the current rules for most of these events its just never going to happen. No head shots might be great for a bjj guy but for someone like myself with a muay thai background its a losing game. MMA With no head shots is basically a grappling contest. There is a big step up in skill level between amt, pro and even semi pro so i wish i could devolpe my skills and experience competing with guys at my level but still with the chance to finish a fight the way i do best. MMA should be just that, a mix of all the skills you have learnt. In no head shots you could be up againts a bjj black belt who dosnt like to get hit so has never had any pro fights.

[ReD_mIst]

I do mate. I would love to be able to fight 10 or 15 fights at amt before i progress up with the current rules for most of these events its just never going to happen. No head shots might be great for a bjj guy but for someone like myself with a muay thai background its a losing game. MMA With no head shots is basically a grappling contest. There is a big step up in skill level between amt, pro and even semi pro so i wish i could devolpe my skills and experience competing with guys at my level but still with the chance to finish a fight the way i do best. MMA should be just that, a mix of all the skills you have learnt. In no head shots you could be up againts a bjj black belt who dosnt like to get hit so has never had any pro fights.

Great post, I'm 100% with you on this and have a similar striking back ground.

The grapplers will insist that the no head shot rules give novices a 'soft' way into MMA. Which is fine.... however, the current soft route impedes those from a striking background and empowers the grappler, so it's not really fair...... however, it doesn't really prepare either for the move to the PRO rules in the future. When they turn pro, not only are they taking a step up in class, but also a change in rules at the same time....

[Yetiman]

Don't some amateur fights allow head shots? Just no knees or elbows? Or am I wrong :(

[Allan Shrek]

Amatuer rules (no head shot) definitely favours grapplers but I think semi-pro is fair to both strikers and grapplers but favours BJJ players over wrestlers.

[simpy]

Great post, I'm 100% with you on this and have a similar striking back ground.

The grapplers will insist that the no head shot rules give novices a 'soft' way into MMA. Which is fine.... however, the current soft route impedes those from a striking background and empowers the grappler, so it's not really fair...... however, it doesn't really prepare either for the move to the PRO rules in the future. When they turn pro, not only are they taking a step up in class, but also a change in rules at the same time....

Amature is a grapplers world. And all this "experience" isnt preparing anyone from any background for the real thing when someone is droping bombs on them. I want to turn pro confident i am fighting a good match for me the only way to get that is to gain experience and the only way to gain experience is to train and most of all fight. As i said i would love to have a load of amt fights but with the rules being againts my style i am going to be looking at semi asap. OK for some people no head shots is great in just the same way no contact and semi contact kick boxing is fun but does it prepare you for mma or for a full contact fight... not at all.

[ReD_mIst]

Don't some amateur fights allow head shots? Just no knees or elbows? Or am I wrong :(

Correct, UK-1 for example has amateur rules with head shots on the ground and standing. AMMA allows headshots standing, but not on the ground and some other shows allow no headshots at all. It's very confusing and makes for a very disjointed sport in the UK

[simpy]

I would love to hear what some of the event organizers such as uk mma league/ grapple and strike who have no head shot events think about this.

[ReD_mIst]

Amatuer rules (no head shot) definitely favours grapplers but I think semi-pro is fair to both strikers and grapplers but favours BJJ players over wrestlers.

I stil think think that strikers get a raw deal. They are still limited to what tools they can use from their background arsenal.... i.e, if it goes to the ground they have virtually all their effective techniques removed from them.

The idea of taking MMA (which grew from true Vale Tudo) and then applying so many restrictions to the techniques, goes against the concept of a 'level playing field' for martial artists. It's not level at AM, it's tilted towards grapplers....

... this is moving more towards 'ye olde rules discussion'....

[ReD_mIst]

Amature is a grapplers world. And all this "experience" isnt preparing anyone from any background for the real thing when someone is droping bombs on them. I want to turn pro confident i am fighting a good match for me the only way to get that is to gain experience and the only way to gain experience is to train and most of all fight. As i said i would love to have a load of amt fights but with the rules being againts my style i am going to be looking at semi asap. OK for some people no head shots is great in just the same way no contact and semi contact kick boxing is fun but does it prepare you for mma or for a full contact fight... not at all.

Based on that post, I think the sport of MMA is doing you a disservice. You are being almost forced to turn pro in order to utilise the skills you have, without the benefit of being able to have a reasonable amateur learning curve.

[simpy]

... this is moving more towards 'ye olde rules discussion'....

I think the rules are the reason tho. People do want an amature carreer but it still needs to be a fair fight and it still needs to be MMA and the only answer to that is old rules/Us style amt rules. I am mixed with the GNP/semi pro thing i think its a good progression and at least gives the striker a chance to eliminate the graplers game and the grapler a chance to elimiate the strikers game but for me i think i would still prefer to have GNP in there so i had something to do if it does go to the ground.

[ReD_mIst]

I think the rules are the reason tho. People do want an amature carreer but it still needs to be a fair fight and it still needs to be MMA and the only answer to that is old rules/Us style amt rules. I am mixed with the GNP/semi pro thing i think its a good progression and at least gives the striker a chance to eliminate the graplers game and the grapler a chance to elimiate the strikers game but for me i think i would still prefer to have GNP in there so i had something to do if it does go to the ground.

I think the rules are one of the reasons, but not the only one.

Other things that play a part are
- A fighters mentality.... does he want to fight AM at all?
- Promotors attitude to AM and PRO experieince
- The percieved 'value' of an amateur career
- Coaches perspective on AM careers
- Glory hunting
- The UFC factor... so many fighters just want to be in the UFC, that they will take a UFC shot, even if they aren't ready for it in their career

I'm sure there are other things. One thing I notice, is that a lot of the above is opinion/perspective and would be easy to change, if we really wanted to.

[simpy]

I think the rules are one of the reasons, but not the only one.

Other things that play a part are
- A fighters mentality.... does he want to fight AM at all?
- Promotors attitude to AM and PRO experieince
- The percieved 'value' of an amateur career
- Coaches perspective on AM careers
- Glory hunting
- The UFC factor... so many fighters just want to be in the UFC, that they will take a UFC shot, even if they aren't ready for it in their career

I'm sure there are other things. One thing I notice, is that a lot of the above is opinion/perspective and would be easy to change, if we really wanted to.

Glory hunting is a big part for some i guess. How many times have you heard " i am a cage fighter" from someone who has maybe done one session on the mat. People like this are always going to want to rush into things but surly they wont last 5 mins on the pro ranks

[iandean]

Shooto have a great system

My rule set would be something like

Combat grappling aka "amateur with no head shots at all" But do these events in a interclub or closed environment

Amatuer with head shots standing

B class pro - no elbows or heel hooks/cranks

Pro - Unified rules

--

But unless shows are FORCED kicking and screaming there will not be an established rule set in the UK

[ReD_mIst]

Shooto have a great system

My rule set would be something like

Combat grappling aka "amateur with no head shots at all" But do these events in a interclub or closed environment

Amatuer with head shots standing

B class pro - no elbows or heel hooks/cranks

Pro - Unified rules

--

But unless shows are FORCED kicking and screaming there will not be an established rule set in the UK

The only thing I would change is the B Class pro, you can still have classesd, but it should represent the experience and skill set of the fighter, not the rules and wouldn't myself, but wouldn't argue against it... mine would be:

Interclub MMA- 'combat grappling', similar to the current AM rules with no head shots at all
Amateur MMA - No elbows or knees to the head, no heel hooks or spine/neck cranks
Pro MMA - Unified rules

Clean and straight forward, gives all fighters a path and a development curve. Allows strikers to benefit from the headshots in amateur, whiclst grapplers can focus on interclub initially. Something like this would improve the quality of fighters/fights at all levels

[widge milward]

Agree with Aaron on the amateur rules, but would use the "sparring" style gloves. i know some people use shorter rounds btu i dont see the point and 2 x 5 is fine

[ReD_mIst]

Agree with Aaron on the amateur rules, but would use the "sparring" style gloves. i know some people use shorter rounds btu i dont see the point and 2 x 5 is fine

Yes, sorry... should of mentioned the gloves. I think AM should be the sparring style gloves, as should the interclub if people really see a need to have that level.

As for rounds. I would rather see 3 rounds of a reduced length than 2 round fights. 2 round fights are a lot harder to score and tend to produce more draws. Possible 3 x 3min rounds for AM?

[Brett]

Agree with Aaron on the amateur rules, but would use the "sparring" style gloves. i know some people use shorter rounds btu i dont see the point and 2 x 5 is fine

I agree 100% with that.

My biggest gripe with the current amateur MMA is the fact that on most shows it seems to be one 4 minute round which is just too short in my opinion. I personally think there is a place for no head shot MMA or combat grappling or whatever it should be called but think the rules may have been diluted too far

[Allan Shrek]

If we're talking about rules then for amatuer.

3*3 or 3*4 rounds.
Sparring gloves and shin pads.
No elbows
No knees to the head of a downed opponent and other unified rules.
No Heel hooks or neck cranks/spine locks.

Anything more doesn't allow enough difference from PRO fights.

Pro fights - Unified Rules/Unified Rules without elbows as per the Swedish system which has government approval.

Any governing body should strive to be as authoritive and respected as the British Boxing Board of Control with input from the top level on what is required in terms of medicals/promoting licenses and medical presence at shows etc.

[ReD_mIst]

If we're talking about rules then for amatuer.

3*3 or 3*4 rounds.
Sparring gloves and shin pads.
No elbows
No knees to the head of a downed opponent and other unified rules.
No Heel hooks or neck cranks/spine locks.

Anything more doesn't allow enough difference from PRO fights.

Pro fights - Unified Rules/Unified Rules without elbows as per the Swedish system which has government approval.

Any governing body should strive to be as authoritive and respected as the British Boxing Board of Control with input from the top level on what is required in terms of medicals/promoting licenses and medical presence at shows etc.

No arguement from me.....

[Yetiman]

Sorry to fill up this thread but what is "B Class Pro"
Thanks

[boxingbrit]

its a must this day in age.

I wish when i first started MMA that there was more Amateur shows, just to be able to learn the skills and be a more complete fighter. that is why i think alot of the "old school" guys have mixed records. there were learning the trade in the pro ranks.

Agreed.



:)

[ReD_mIst]

Sorry to fill up this thread but what is "B Class Pro"
Thanks

It's essentially a reduced rule pro level, Cage Warriors have used it and essentially it is the same as the amateur rules that I talk about. i.e. heashots on the ground, no elbows to the head, no heel hooks, no neck cranks. It's a good set of MMA rules, but I don't see any reason to call it B class Pro apart from the already confusing rule sets assigned to amateur already

[Yetiman]

Thanks a lot ReD

[Allan Shrek]

It's also the rule set used for all MMA in Sweden but with only 2 rounds rather than 3. It also is the same as Shooto B-Class rules. To add to teh confusion some UK promoters use B-Class pro rules as Shooto A-Class rules (ie 3 rounds rather than 2).

It's simple really ;)

[simpy]

If we're talking about rules then for amatuer.

3*3 or 3*4 rounds.
Sparring gloves and shin pads.
No elbows
No knees to the head of a downed opponent and other unified rules.
No Heel hooks or neck cranks/spine locks.

Anything more doesn't allow enough difference from PRO fights.

Pro fights - Unified Rules/Unified Rules without elbows as per the Swedish system which has government approval.

Any governing body should strive to be as authoritive and respected as the British Boxing Board of Control with input from the top level on what is required in terms of medicals/promoting licenses and medical presence at shows etc.

That sounds perfect to me. If only i could see it happening any time soon.

[Le_Divin_Marquis]

How would you explain to a fighter the importance of an amateur carreer? Building up some experience? If you're fighting someone of your level, the experience is the same. Protecting your record? I hope not, MMA shouldn't become like boxing.

I would say that it's just a matter of standards, a lot of us are fighting pro when they shouldn't because usually the good guys turn pro pretty quickly and it's not fair to keep fighting novices(especially if you're over 84kgs, it becomes harder to get matched against a quality opponent in amateur).

Having an amateur carrer is important of course, but only if you think long-term. To learn what competing is like before there's too much at stake, to gradually increase your stress and pressure threshold.

[ReD_mIst]

How would you explain to a fighter the importance of an amateur carreer? Building up some experience? If you're fighting someone of your level, the experience is the same. Protecting your record? I hope not, MMA shouldn't become like boxing.

Yes, the experience is the same, but that doesn't mean it's a good level of experience. Would you rather be on a big show demostrating how little you know or on a big show demonstrating a proficient you are.

How would having an amateur career protect a record? You can still loose and it's still on an amateur record. Plus surely the pro fights become more competitive because the fighters aren't havig the 3rd ever fight.


I would say that it's just a matter of standards, a lot of us are fighting pro when they shouldn't because usually the good guys turn pro pretty quickly and it's not fair to keep fighting novices(especially if you're over 84kgs, it becomes harder to get matched against a quality opponent in amateur).

Makles no sense. If fighters (even the good ones) have a reasonable amateur career, then there are MORE amateur fighters and the skill level in both amateur and pro grows


Having an amateur carrer is important of course, but only if you think long-term. To learn what competing is like before there's too much at stake, to gradually increase your stress and pressure threshold.

Agreed.... however, if a fighter is thinking short term, then maybe it's better that he stays in the amateur ranks anyway.

Why would anyone argue having better quality fighters in both pro and amateur? Fighters taking longer in the amateur ranks only imporves the experience and the quality. Just like in the US.... where there are more amateur events and less dilution of rule sets

[ReD_mIst]

It's not a race to the UFC..... and fighters that think it is are not doing themselves or the sport any favours.

[Le_Divin_Marquis]

Makles no sense. If fighters (even the good ones) have a reasonable amateur career, then there are MORE amateur fighters and the skill level in both amateur and pro grows



This is what I'm saying, that's the big IF. A lot of fighters would love to go through an amateur carreer first, but they're a minority, and as a result they have to turn pro because they're just too good. It's an endless circle.

This is what the governing body should create, a system which forces you to go through certain stages, unless you can prove you've been competing enough in full contact combat sports before being considered as a legitimate "pro" competitor.


It only depends on the standards of the shows, it's the promoters and the coaches fault. Who thinks it's a race to fight for the UFC? It could be, but fortunatly the UFC chooses its fighters, not the other way around, I dont see the logic behind it, what do you mean? That the fighters think they are short on time and that they should have 20 fights ASAP to be selected? It's so silly, I would say that the shortest way to make it to the UFC is to pick a couple of easy fights per year and then try out for TUF(my naive opinion) to be portrayed as an undefeated arrogant teenage-like prick.


In the meantime, we are nearly all pro cage fighters, or semi-pro champions,always usefull to impresse the birds or brag on myspace.

[Reedy]

I did no head shots mma (however you want to define it, am mma, grappling with body strikes etc) before i fought pro and it did me the world of good. Even though i did the no head shot comps i always was aware i would fight pro and i always fought to be on top. I trained extremely hard to win the welsh amatuer grapple and strike tournament and would advise anyone to do them.

The more am comps the better and the more with head shots and bigger gloves the better so guys can learn mma and not get thrown in at the deep end. Saying that those big gloves arnt very big at all, and being on the bottom of a nasty ground and pound from someone good, whilst not getting paid might not sound to attractive.

Classes soun good to me. B class is a really good way to learn the pro game.

[Jay]

As someone alluded to earlier, would it be possible to list all the orgs that run the 'proper' amateur rules with GnP and bigger gloves?

Up north it really is a struggle to find am rules of this variety unless quannum do an interclub.

[shakus maximus]

I did no head shots mma (however you want to define it, am mma, grappling with body strikes etc) before i fought pro and it did me the world of good. Even though i did the no head shot comps i always was aware i would fight pro and i always fought to be on top. I trained extremely hard to win the welsh amatuer grapple and strike tournament and would advise anyone to do them.

The more am comps the better and the more with head shots and bigger gloves the better so guys can learn mma and not get thrown in at the deep end. Saying that those big gloves arnt very big at all, and being on the bottom of a nasty ground and pound from someone good, whilst not getting paid might not sound to attractive.

excellent post

[Seca Sec]

I would say that the shortest way to make it to the UFC is to pick a couple of easy fights per year and then try out for TUF(my naive opinion) to be portrayed as an undefeated arrogant teenage-like prick.


lmao, you've just summed up my whole career plan.

ohh maynnn

[simpy]

As someone alluded to earlier, would it be possible to list all the orgs that run the 'proper' amateur rules with GnP and bigger gloves?

Up north it really is a struggle to find am rules of this variety unless quannum do an interclub.

The only events i am aware of is an interclub type event at sol gilberts gys ZT i think they are called. I belive there is a post in the amateur section with a few dates.

[The ZT Team]

The only events i am aware of is an interclub type event at sol gilberts gys ZT i think they are called. I belive there is a post in the amateur section with a few dates.

http://cagewarriors.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32631

[MMA RULES]

just for the record , does anyone know which shows do amateur with ground head shots?

Fight Factory dose GnP in there Semi-Pro rules.

We make people wear 8oz MMA sparring gloves for are Semi-Pro. Makes people feel safer before they move onto the 4oz. Plus stop's the cut's.

Fight-Factory rules:

Amt: UK MMA League Rules

Semi-Pro: CW b-class Rules - 8oz gloves.

Pro: UFC

If we all used these rules, it would make it alot easyer for everyone........

[Shaolin Exile]

Why do so few fighters value their amateur career?

It's not a race to turn pro. Amateur careers allow a fighter to actually learn their trade. A good and varied amateur career, enables a fighter to develop and will lead to an even better pro career.

In Amateur boxing, fighters can have dozens of fights before considering turning pro, but in MMA it appears fighters have 2-3 amateur fights and then are eager to turn pro. Why is that?

To go back to this original question, I think the problem is the way in which MMA has evolved.

In the aftermath of the first UFCs you saw a lot of people from traditional martial arts and combat sports wanting to have a go. As earlier posters on the thread have said, there weren't a lot of events so effectively this often meant going straight to high profile shows where there was some sort of a purse (however paltry).

Although the sport has moved on a long way, novices look at the fight records of some of the big names at the first point they made an impression, and think they're ready to go pro themselves. What they overlook is a) that those people had already accomplished things in closely related fields b) although they have trained for MMA only, so does everyone else these days and c) The world has moved on from 3 pro promotions per year in the UK to about 3 per month, and God knows what the USA situation is like.

In other words, the correct approach in this day and age should be to have an extensive amateur record before going pro. You don't win the County tennis championships and go straight for the grand slam, and even amateur boxers who have won the Olympics have been known to fall flat on their faces (both literally and metaphorically) by going pro too soon afterwards

[ReD_mIst]

Fight Factory dose GnP in there Semi-Pro rules.

We make people wear 8oz MMA sparring gloves for are Semi-Pro. Makes people feel safer before they move onto the 4oz. Plus stop's the cut's.

Fight-Factory rules:

Amt: UK MMA League Rules

Semi-Pro: CW b-class Rules - 8oz gloves.

Pro: UFC

If we all used these rules, it would make it alot easyer for everyone........

No it wouldm't, cause you would still have silly amateur rules that aren't MMA and then "Semi-pro" which just confuses things.

Two levels, you are either Amateur or Pro (If you are pro and have a full time job too, then you are considered a semi-pro athelete, but you still compete in the pro ranks). Interclubs are something else and tbh, I'm not really bothers about the rules for them.

[Duchman]

i wish i hada amateur career. not that i had any worth while career what so ever.
But i jumped into pro mma after one, 1 minute amateur fight.. I soon was offerd fights, i did not feel ready for at all. it totaly head fucked me
stay at amateur as long as possible, under the closest to pro rules.

dont become a bum like me lol

[pauljono1120]

I think that ametuer could be more difficult?
Like...if a guy whos been training 6 months fights, he may have basic grappling skills, but nothing major, and may find it difficult to win a fight mainly using ground work
weras Headshots could be an easy GnP Or K0 for someone who has fast or strong hands or w/e or.. more experience on the feet but without them...i reckon its more difficult to win?...I cant really explain what i mean but ye..

Idk mayube its just me....anyone else think the same?

[ReD_mIst]

I think that ametuer could be more difficult?
Like...if a guy whos been training 6 months fights, he may have basic grappling skills, but nothing major, and may find it difficult to win a fight mainly using ground work
weras Headshots could be an easy GnP Or K0 for someone who has fast or strong hands or w/e or.. more experience on the feet but without them...i reckon its more difficult to win?...I cant really explain what i mean but ye..

Idk mayube its just me....anyone else think the same?

Welcome to MMA, if you don't like it there are various other martial arts available.... MMA is not for everyone!

[Le_Divin_Marquis]

When novices fight under pro rules, you see a lot of TKO's due to ground and pound. Semi pro rules make sense I think. But agreed, amateur mma is not mma, just a first step to get used to the cage and the nerves if you have them.

[ReD_mIst]

When novices fight under pro rules, you see a lot of TKO's due to ground and pound. Semi pro rules make sense I think. But agreed, amateur mma is not mma, just a first step to get used to the cage and the nerves if you have them.

Why not start with sub wrestling or BJJ. I can't get to grips with grapplers who want to do MMA... but without the punches cause they don't like them.... MMA has GnP, it's the ONLY unqiue set of techniques MMA has

[boxingbrit]

Welcome to MMA, if you don't like it there are various other martial arts available.... MMA is not for everyone!

Exactly. Judo, Aikido, Jap Ju jitsu all cater for peopl who dont really wanna risk headshots. In the same way Muay Thai and boxing cater for anyone who doesnt want to get there arm snapped.

[Le_Divin_Marquis]

Why not start with sub wrestling or BJJ. I can't get to grips with grapplers who want to do MMA... but without the punches cause they don't like them.... MMA has GnP, it's the ONLY unqiue set of techniques MMA has

Don't get me wrong I like GNP, but I still think semipro rules make sense and are a good way to start full rules mma, if you dont consider it as MMA call it pancrace or whatever but between two novices it's not about who's the grappler or the striker it's the one who gets on top and starts to GNP, from what I've always seen. And you will never prevent beginners from competing.

[ReD_mIst]

Don't get me wrong I like GNP, but I still think semipro rules make sense and are a good way to start full rules mma, if you dont consider it as MMA call it pancrace or whatever but between two novices it's not about who's the grappler or the striker it's the one who gets on top and starts to GNP, from what I've always seen. And you will never prevent beginners from competing.


But thats the whole point of MMA isn't it? YOu put two fighters in a ring/cage and they fight to see who can beat the other. If the grappler can't submit his opponent on the ground and his opponent beats him with GnP then he won, fair and bloody square. Why should the grappler insist on fighting MMA.... but without the nasty head shots that stop him going for his armbar from guard....er... tough shit mate... welcome to MMA, feel free to go back to BJJ where you won't get punched.

It's strikes me as 'mard' when grapplers talk about no headshots on the ground... and it hardly makes for a fair fight, does it!

[Shaolin Exile]

There are a few questions which seem to get blurred whenever this topic comes up but which are really separate issues

1. What is the purpose of MMA?
Answer: to find out what happens when you have two fighters fighting under 'all in' rules?

2. What set of rules would make a combat sport which is netiher boxing nor grappling but a fusion of both acceptable for a wider audience?
Answer depends on who you're talking to?

3. How do go about establishing a professional form of grappling for top flight grapplers that sells massive ppvs and isn't pro wrestling of the World of Sport/TNA/WWE type?
Answer: God knows!

[ReD_mIst]

There are a few questions which seem to get blurred whenever this topic comes up but which are really separate issues

1. What is the purpose of MMA?
Anser: to find out what happens when you have two fighters fighting under all in rules

I would potentially argue that.

That was the purpose of Vale Tudo, MMA is a sport that developed from the SEG's attempts to populairse Vale Tudo for the American audience under the name UFC. it took a fair few years of VT and pressure from external sources and bodies in the US, to develop MMA. Those bodies had issues with some of the techniques, such as groin strikes, hair pulling, etc, the lack of rounds, weights, judges..... so they made changes, which are reflected in the Unified rules for MMA. Those rules have been accepted by a number of states in the US and across the world as the standard MMA rules. So why is it that in the UK we feel that we need to remove the GnP aspect for novices? The bodies in america didn't have an issues with GnP, if they did, they would of asked for it to be removed.

If you are a fighter and don't fancy the idea of being hit on the ground, then MMA isn't for you.... find another sport, rather than try and change MMA to fit your style.

[Shaolin Exile]

Yes. That's a much better summary of what MMA is all about than what I said originally

[Le_Divin_Marquis]

Grapplers are not those who hate GNP, non wrestlers are. I'm not one of those, I just say that a mma fight between two novices is just a wrestling match, the first one to get on top will pound on the other because an effective guard is what takes the longest time to develop.

I've been at a local show in germany where GNP was allowed. GNP was what the fights were all about.

[ReD_mIst]

Grapplers are not those who hate GNP, non wrestlers are. I'm not one of those, I just say that a mma fight between two novices is just a wrestling match, the first one to get on top will pound on the other because an effective guard is what takes the longest time to develop.

I've been at a local show in germany where GNP was allowed. GNP was what the fights were all about.

I don't understand what your point is? It takes time to be effective at all aspects of GnP, including effective guard, good wrestling control and effective Gnp that doesn't leave you vulnerable to submissions. That's MMA.

As for you last point about the show, what does it matter if fighters used GnP? if it is effective in finsihing the fight, then that's great. Again, that's what MMA is all about. If you wanted to see slick submissions, wouldn't of been better to watch a BJJ competition.This is MMA... it has GnP... which can be very effective in winning a fight

[Jay Evans]

Everything is best done in stages I'd of thought?

You build up a good grappling/bjj etc etc ability while competiting amateur while having a limited amount of striking, then you move to semi pro and get some shots to head etc and develope your striking, then when your ready tou move to pro for the full experience.

I'm not anyway qualified to comment but thats how I assumed it works? wouldn't jumping straight to pro be really overwelming?

[ReD_mIst]

Everything is best done in stages I'd of thought?

You build up a good grappling/bjj etc etc ability while competiting amateur while having a limited amount of striking, then you move to semi pro and get some shots to head etc and develope your striking, then when your ready tou move to pro for the full experience.

I'm not anyway qualified to comment but thats how I assumed it works? wouldn't jumping straight to pro be really overwelming?

Semi fucking pro again... semi bollox, more like!

[matt@westfightcompany]

Everything is best done in stages I'd of thought?

You build up a good grappling/bjj etc etc ability while competiting amateur while having a limited amount of striking, then you move to semi pro and get some shots to head etc and develope your striking, then when your ready tou move to pro for the full experience.

I'm not anyway qualified to comment but thats how I assumed it works? wouldn't jumping straight to pro be really overwelming?

It is best done in stages, but I think the point that is being missed is that the difference between amateur and Pro (with the others in between, semi etc) should be the quality of the fighters and their experience not the rule set. Amateur MMA with no head shots is like boxing with no head shots, different game (you probably wouldn't consider it boxing..). I think Aaron is simply saying build up your experience in amateur events with evenly matched opponents under full rules so you are ready to fight pro when the time comes. If you don't want to get GNP'd do grappling/sub wrestling.

I've had 4 amateur fights and 1 semi pro fight on the ( 1st east coast fight factory show) the amateur fights under MMA league rules are like combat grappling (quote Duchman I think), but were valuable in feeling that adrenaline dump when you're across the mat from some one.
It's a very surreal experience to actually fight when compared to training but you can definetley gain valuable knowledge from both types of competition before you take the step up to pro. To be honest I used the MMA league to gauge improvements in my grappling and takedowns etc because it isn't directly comparable to full rules, but gets you used to working under pressure from a fully resisting opponent. I plan to see out at least this year with more of the same but would definetley be more interested in full rules amateur level bouts.

Sorry for the essay..

[matt@westfightcompany]

Semi fucking pro again... semi bollox, more like!

lol! and also saying 'semi bollox'!

[ReD_mIst]

It is best done in stages, but I think the point that is being missed is that the difference between amateur and Pro (with the others in between, semi etc) should be the quality of the fighters and their experience not the rule set. Amateur MMA with no head shots is like boxing with no head shots, different game (you probably wouldn't consider it boxing..). I think Aaron is simply saying build up your experience in amateur events with evenly matched opponents under full rules so you are ready to fight pro when the time comes. If you don't want to get GNP'd do grappling/sub wrestling.

I've had 4 amateur fights and 1 semi pro fight on the ( 1st east coast fight factory show) the amateur fights under MMA league rules are like combat grappling (quote Duchman I think), but were valuable in feeling that adrenaline dump when you're across the mat from some one.
It's a very surreal experience to actually fight when compared to training but you can definetley gain valuable knowledge from both types of competition before you take the step up to pro. To be honest I used the MMA league to gauge improvements in my grappling and takedowns etc because it isn't directly comparable to full rules, but gets you used to working under pressure from a fully resisting opponent. I plan to see out at least this year with more of the same but would definetley be more interested in full rules amateur level bouts.

Sorry for the essay..

Yep, that's where I am coming from. I'd love to see an Amateur level of the sport, where the rules are recognisable as MMA and fighters can compete and learn their sport. A minimum of 10 Amateur fights should be the norm.... I didn't really start on the whole rules thing, other people brought that up, but it is a huge bugbear of mine....

[Le_Divin_Marquis]

It's a bit like leglocks in BJJ. Is it still submission fighting when leglocks are not allowed? Maybe not.

But if you show the basic leglocks to a beginner, he will forget about working on his guard passing skills. He will consider leglocks as a shortcut, maybe get better at them but that's about it, his technical developpement wont go any further.

I think you missed my point, I'm not saying GNP makes shit fight, all I wanna say is that it is what the fight is all about when the competitors have very little mat time.
It takes about 10 minutes to show a couple of effective takedowns to a complete beginner that he can execute on someone of his level. You dont even need to teach him GNP mechanics he will do fine once he's on top of another novice.

It usually takes months of practice to develop on offensive submission game from the bottom.

Anyway, I perfectly understand your point, but I think you can be right only under this condition: beginners shouldn't compete in MMA. And that's something we can't really control.

[ReD_mIst]

It's a bit like leglocks in BJJ. Is it still submission fighting when leglocks are not allowed? Maybe not.

But if you show the basic leglocks to a beginner, he will forget about working on his guard passing skills. He will consider leglocks as a shortcut, maybe get better at them but that's about it, his technical developpement wont go any further.

I think you missed my point, I'm not saying GNP makes shit fight, all I wanna say is that it is what the fight is all about when the competitors have very little mat time.
It takes about 10 minutes to show a couple of effective takedowns to a complete beginner that he can execute on someone of his level. You dont even need to teach him GNP mechanics he will do fine once he's on top of another novice.

It usually takes months of practice to develop on offensive submission game from the bottom.

Anyway, I perfectly understand your point, but I think you can be right only under this condition: beginners shouldn't compete in MMA. And that's something we can't really control.

Sorry, but I don't think we do agree.

Yes, you can teach someone some quick takedowns and he can flail around on top, however, that's not effective, in fact, it has potential to get him submitted.

I can't "only be right under this condition" (pretty insulting to say that, tbh!). Of course beginners can compete in MMA..... against other beginners... in an Amateur MMA division. Which is what I have said all along. For some reason, you can't accept that.....

[Le_Divin_Marquis]

TBH, I didn't want to sound insulting, it's all about having a normal and legitimate debate.

We could have both types of amateur competetion, and see what happens, and that's already the case, but in the UK very few shows offer amateur fighters the opportunity to compete under full mma rules.

I don't know if it is going anywhere, but I insist on that point, most beginners are unable to develop any sort of offence from their back, even when their opponent makes a lot of basic mistakes(hands on the mat, bad posture, weak base, turning to far and giving up their back). I have nothing against this idea but I'm pretty sure you would see most novice fights ending by GNP, which is only a facet of the MMA game.

Semi pro rules are a good start to add takedown offense and defense to regular kickboxing, get used to the smaller gloves and the environment. There's no reason to be AGAINST that type of competition, even if you think it is getting to far from classic MMA to keep calling it MMA.

I think this debate has been done quite a lot over here, I would say that the only construtive answer to bring is to call for an amateur league that would allow headshots on the ground and see if it still makes sense to have semi-pro rules.

[andyt1992]

Aaron, you point out that the no head shot MMA is pretty much useless, yet you say that Alex Owen is a perfect example of how it should be done, he had 29 fights under no head shot rules before progressing so you've contradicted yourself.

Really he was saying that Alex Owen got a lot of fight experience and did well but it would be better for the sport if headshots were included in promoters amateur mma shows.

[andyt1992]

...but I'm pretty sure you would see most novice fights ending by GNP, which is only a facet of the MMA game....



I'm surre some promoters must be thinking about the fact that amateurs GnPing the shit out of each other which people can see on youtube etc gives the sport a negative light to people have never experienced an mma training session. e.g if you told people that you was doing mma they'd say wtf's that and u'd say cagefighting basicallly they then relate that to what they see on tv and because they dont have a clue about all the practice and training around a fight they just think its two bloodthirsty men kicking the shit out of each other for money? correct me if i'm entirely wrong was just an idea i had .

[shakus maximus]

i have guys competing in amateur {no headshot}, semi {headshot standing) and pro rules.
i think each rule set is of huge importance
the no head shot give the guys that have had no other martial arts experience a good base to start at without the pressure of being knocked the f**k out in there 1st ever bout.
to say there is no point to no headshot rules and grappling/bjj is better suited is nonsence, as you have to deal with leg kicks, body shots. knees to the body, ground and pound to the body. granted this does not prepare you for G&P to the head but it points in in the right direction
how many people has this sport potentially lost through students being encouraged to go straight into fights with full pro rules, getting ko'd and have dissapeared from the sport due to confidence being shattered. that same person if progressed properly may have had the potential to be UFC champ but we will never know
it is horses for courses, and some guys are more suited to go straight into full rules, that is a decision for the fighter and coach to make.
if you feel that no headshots is a good stepping stone then embrace it.
it is obviously a hugely popular option as Grapple & Strike Wales, the combat sports trials, etc are always sold out.
some very good fighters have progressed through this rule set and their opinions should have a huge impact on your decision, Paul Reed being an excellent example.
other fighters to progress well by starting out with this rule set are
PAT CARR, PAUL JENKINS, RONNIE MANN, ALEX OWEN, SOL GILBERT, TOM BLACKLEGE, MARK GODDARD. DAVE LEE, PAUL SUTHERLAND, PAUL DALEY. DENNISTON SUTHERLAND, SIMON PHILLIPS, ZELG GALSIC, PAUL REED, JOSEPH DUFFY & TIM NEWMAN.

I dont feel the no head shot rule set has done them any harm.
If you want to dip your toe in the water give it a go
just my opinion
Shaky

[Adasko]

so in AM MMA there is no head shots even while standing up :confused:

[Luke]

Shakus maximus has no headshotted the correct.

[David Butlin]

Quannum interclubs are essentially B-class pro rules with sparring gloves. We also offer B-class rules and full pro rules (NSAC). I dont allow twisting leglocks or neck cranks until pro.

I dont really think it matters what rules the promoters allow. Fighters will fight under the rules they are happy with. As long as they are enjoying it thats the main thing. I think evenly matched amateur or b-class are essential before throwing fighters in to pro rules.

I have fought semi pro no headshots, at the time it was the only fights available. I learnt from it and tbh i think if it had been headshots I would have been dominated in my first fight or learnt i need top position, who knows. That been said headshots are probably an important part of building a foundation of your careeer.

If you get used to not having head shots on the floor and defending them you will gain bad habits imo.

D

[Recreio Fighter]

Semi fucking pro again... semi bollox, more like!

semi pro is better than those gay no headshots amature tournaments :mad:

head shots standing is a must though

[Adasko]

yeah, cuz some people need to get hit in the face to actualy start fighting for real :D

[ReD_mIst]

yeah, cuz some people need to get hit in the face to actualy start fighting for real :D


Shouldn't a fighters warm up get him into a physical and mental state to 'start fighting for real'?

[Recreio Fighter]

yeah, cuz some people need to get hit in the face to actualy start fighting for real :D


if you dont like getting hit in the face then go play tennis or something

[Leigh]

Aaron is correct. I wish I had an amateur career to gain experience. I am still learning by trial and error and that shouldn't be the case for a seasoned professional in any sport

[Recreio Fighter]

Aaron is correct. I wish I had an amateur career to gain experience. I am still learning by trial and error and that shouldn't be the case for a seasoned professional in any sport

how many semi pro fights (head shot standing only) would you think is reasonable before turning pro??

5/6? or when you feel ready/ or coaches opinion

[ReD_mIst]

I know that was aimed at Leigh, but I have an opinion.

Semi pro is bollox. Should be AM and PRO, so I will answer based on AM

I believe an AM fighter should have 2-3 years at that level, aiming to fight 8-10 times a year, so upwards of 20 fights. There will be exceptions to thge rule, but even those guys should be looking at 10-15 fights.

Probably is, the UK MMA scene tends to provide little provision for a long AM career and pushes fighters to "go pro"

[Recreio Fighter]

red mist when you say AM -- do you mean those comps with no headshots standing --1 x5 min round and scored a draw if it goes the distance?

or just the headshots standing --no headshot on the ground --2 x4/ 5 mins rounds

I wish there was a body for universal amature rules in the UK...... and those fighters who dont make weight/ dont show up face a fine or suspension

[Le_Divin_Marquis]

I know that was aimed at Leigh, but I have an opinion.

Semi pro is bollox. Should be AM and PRO, so I will answer based on AM

I believe an AM fighter should have 2-3 years at that level, aiming to fight 8-10 times a year, so upwards of 20 fights. There will be exceptions to thge rule, but even those guys should be looking at 10-15 fights.

Probably is, the UK MMA scene tends to provide little provision for a long AM career and pushes fighters to "go pro"



Naive question, but howcome an amateur fighter should fight nearly every month when the pro take on average 3 fights a year?

[Luke]

Naive question, but howcome an amateur fighter should fight nearly every month when the pro take on average 3 fights a year?

You can get 2 fights at combat sports open (& Grapple & Strike).

[supajay]

I personally make all my guys fight Am rules With Headshots upstanding and on the ground, before they think about pro, and for example I am making Carl have at least 10 am fights before we look at him for pro but i reckon he will have like 15 depending on how he progresses

I run CFC and we have am bouts with headstrikes standin and on the ground,

I made the AM rules with strikes on the ground when i ran UKMMAC as every am event in the Uk until then was no headstrike and there is no transition from body only shots to pro rules.

personally all fighters should do am first then pro as in boxing this is generally the case, very few boxers go straight into pro without any am bouts.

I watch some pro fights and know my amateurs could hang with a lot of these guys, not saying my guys are the best about, but some of the pro fighters I watch are not that great,(as pro fighters)

here is an example of Carl fighting at CFC in amateur rules
Carls 4th Amateur bout (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hh7HywBxkWA&feature=PlayList&p=8CA932BB756D3FD0&index=8)

If any guys ever want to fight on CFC events under our am rules just email me and I will sort you guys out a fight: INFO@CAGEFIGHTERS.NET

[ReD_mIst]

red mist when you say AM -- do you mean those comps with no headshots standing --1 x5 min round and scored a draw if it goes the distance?

or just the headshots standing --no headshot on the ground --2 x4/ 5 mins rounds

I wish there was a body for universal amature rules in the UK...... and those fighters who dont make weight/ dont show up face a fine or suspension

No I don't. Cause, as well documented on many occasions, I believe the rules are a mess in the UK, The rules for AM and PRO should essentially be the same, it is the level that should be the difference between AM and PRO

[ReD_mIst]

Naive question, but howcome an amateur fighter should fight nearly every month when the pro take on average 3 fights a year?

Well first off, I don't think a Pro should take on an average of 3 fights. Maybe at the top of their game or as a champion, 3 is fine. But early on, they shuld be busy.... have a look at Tyson's record... he had 14 fights in his first year!

As the level of the fights rise, then fighters can afford to have fewer fights

[boxingbrit]

I agree with Red_Mist totally on all these points

[pancraspain]

competitor is required for the -82 to April 18. for event in spain valencia. more info no-team-valencia@hotmail.com



http://www.koarena.com/
http://www.closedfight.blogspot.com/
http://321luchar.blogspot.com/

[David Butlin]

if you dont like getting hit in the face then go play tennis or something

What rules have you fought under?
How many fights have you had?
Do you play tennis?

Thanks in advance

D

[Recreio Fighter]

What rules have you fought under?
How many fights have you had?
Do you play tennis?

Thanks in advance

D

0:( but want to in the next year

no i dont play tennis :) .....

the guy i quoted said you dont need headshots to get prepared for pro or something ..... im just saying you need them standing

p.s did you get everything sorted with that guy from red dragon mma huddersfield who said bad things

[relentless-featherwieght]

one of my guy's did 30 amateur fight b4 going pro....

[saul]

I am planning on at least 10 fights on amateur shows. My record is 1-0 so i'm just starting.

I think having a good amateur record is important because if you cant win the majority of amateur fights you have no business thinking about pro level.

[simpy]

I am planning on at least 10 fights on amateur shows. My record is 1-0 so i'm just starting.

I think having a good amateur record is important because if you cant win the majority of amateur fights you have no business thinking about pro level.

This is not really true as i said before i come from a muay thai background and with most amateur events now being no head shots its very hard for me to get a win, i am not saying i hav no ground skills at all but my strong point is my striking. Unless i get a body shot KO which isnt the easiest thing to do i am normally looking at a draw or a lose. So if i cant win all of my amt fights i do not belive that means i cant KO if i was fighting pro. Not that i am jumping into it yet i will get a couple more amt under my belt for now win or lose.

[Brett]

This is not really true as i said before i come from a muay thai background and with most amateur events now being no head shots its very hard for me to get a win, i am not saying i hav no ground skills at all but my strong point is my striking. Unless i get a body shot KO which isnt the easiest thing to do i am normally looking at a draw or a lose. So if i cant win all of my amt fights i do not belive that means i cant KO if i was fighting pro. Not that i am jumping into it yet i will get a couple more amt under my belt for now win or lose.

If striking is your strong point then do 'semi-pro' rules rather than amateur to get your experience

[crawley_lyndon]

people think about the results of semi pro and am fights to much just because your a good ground fighter dosnt mean you shud stay am and avoid semi pro get used to getting hit. same as if your a stand up fighter you shud still do grappling comps and am fights for experiance also motivates you to train your weaker points.i have most sucsess in wrestling but i still fight thai boxing and semi pro mma where i can not hit to the head on the floor just for experiance.

[saul]

This is not really true as i said before i come from a muay thai background and with most amateur events now being no head shots its very hard for me to get a win, i am not saying i hav no ground skills at all but my strong point is my striking. Unless i get a body shot KO which isnt the easiest thing to do i am normally looking at a draw or a lose. So if i cant win all of my amt fights i do not belive that means i cant KO if i was fighting pro. Not that i am jumping into it yet i will get a couple more amt under my belt for now win or lose.

There are quite a few amateur shows with headshots. Personally speaking i wouldnt do a 'no-headshot' fight because as others have said its really a different sport and wouldnt give an indication of how ur pro career might go.

[quartz]

who is the best amateur fighter in the u.k under 16

[simpy]

There are quite a few amateur shows with headshots. Personally speaking i wouldnt do a 'no-headshot' fight because as others have said its really a different sport and wouldnt give an indication of how ur pro career might go.

This is the thing there are not many Amateur shows that allow head shots infact i am only aware of one in the Uk the does and that is ZT fight nights.

[Brett]

There are quite a few amateur shows with headshots. Personally speaking i wouldnt do a 'no-headshot' fight because as others have said its really a different sport and wouldnt give an indication of how ur pro career might go.

It depends what people want, not everyone that fights amateur rules does so because they eventually want to fight pro, some are just happy to stay at that level, maybe because they just prefer the grappling side or having a bruised face doesn't go down well at work or whatever.

I eventually want to step up from amateur to at least 'semi pro' and eventually 'B class' (as don't really fancy getting my face cut to bits with elbows) but i'm not sure it'll ever be practical as i have an office job where i'd probably get the sack if i kept turning up with with my face smashed up. even then i only fancy doing those level fights as a bit of fun, MMA is just a hobby to me and i have no ambition to make it my career or even to get anywhere with it, i just want to have fun.

I think often there's too much pressure in MMA for people to keep progressing to the next level and to fight more and more

[Viper]

Why do so few fighters value their amateur career?

It's not a race to turn pro. Amateur careers allow a fighter to actually learn their trade. A good and varied amateur career, enables a fighter to develop and will lead to an even better pro career.

In Amateur boxing, fighters can have dozens of fights before considering turning pro, but in MMA it appears fighters have 2-3 amateur fights and then are eager to turn pro. Why is that?

Money & seen as Journey men by promoters????? that's how I felt when I was fighting, now would start quite happily back at AM and work thro :)

[simpy]

I think often there's too much pressure in MMA for people to keep progressing to the next level and to fight more and more

Now this is something i agree with. For most of us anyway we started MMA because we wanted a hobby and to have fun not because we have to be the next UFC champ in X amount of years. I train because i enjoy it and i compete because i enjoy it. Saying that i dont think a bit of drive is a bad thing so long as it is for the right reasons and not just for ego.