tips when taking back

[Annitsford]

Been training Judo for a bit now and have found 90% of Judo guys go into a turtle position (give there back) most of the time, this may favour Judo rules but in seems a sin for BJJ. Any tip to expolit this defencive position.

[MikeyL]

get your hooks in!

[Daddy D]

Assuming your talking about rolling with judo rules, Hooks in and roll em for the collar choke, or chose an arm and roll back into an arm bar (or juji gatami as you judo boys would call it). Once youve got your hooks in, the world is your oyster.

[jonbroster]

Hi,

The great thing about somebody turtling up and trying to stay there until the referee calls maté (stop) is that (in the club, when no one is playing to the clock) you can put the hooks in and go for the choke, or, better still, sit on his back, right between his shoulder blades, hook his arm and then forward roll into juji-gatame (cross-body arm lock). This kind of move is the mainstay of the arm locks section of a lot of judo books.

A lot of judo players will hold their lapels when they turtle up, to prevent the choke. This means that the elbow is more exposed, but you then have to know how to open the arms when they are on their back.
(Check out Neil Adams' book on Armlocks or Eddie Bravo's book on Rubber Guard for loads of ways of opening the arms)

Jon

[Rob T]

Getting control with your arms is more important than getting hooks in. I prefer over-under control (even with the gi).

Lots of great attacks from turtle which tie in with taking the back... reverse omoplata, clock choke (if done right no one can defen my fren), a couple of triangle variations...

I would say just look to control the position (on top of turtle) and take your time, concentrate on stopping them rolling back to guard (or worse, sweeping you)... but this is not such a good tactic for judo under competition rules.

[Annitsford]

Some good stuff, thanks..

The judo guys have no interest in doing much else that going to this position, is this the norm starting to boil my piss... Obvious lack of skill on my part but cant seem to get anthing in, sometimes hooks.. Love Judo though just seems wrong to give the back up even decent dan grades...

[jonbroster]

Hi,

Remember, what they are doing is defending the pin. So they are guilty, if you like, of passivity. Remember, that in comps this is fine and normal and it is then up to the ne waza specialist to be able to break open the turtle.

Try this:
-put your chest on their back and come to the side, pushing diagonally down into them.
-reach under their head, across the front of their arms, and grab the far elbow.
-reach over to their far leg and hold the foot where the shoe laces would be.
-pull the foot up over their backside.
-push forward, pulling the elbow toward you.
-drive sideways across them, causing them to collapse.

I use this as my main breakdown against a turtled up judo player. A lot of the time they will just try to scramble back to the turtle, but you have that time to do something, often by threatening a pin.

Jon

[piratebrido]

I still have trouble with some of them. They can be bastards to move.

Robert Drysdale has some great turtle attacks from his nth degree jits dvds. Might be up on youtube and the like. Had success with them.

[Jimmy Boogaloo]

good read, cheers

[david5]

one little tip i picked up off eraldo paes today:

when you have the harness, the underhook hand cups the hand that's around the neck,but the really special party is the thumb of the hand round the neck, point the BIG knuckle of the thumb upwards and drive it into your opponents solar plexus.

you will be surprised how much this fucking hurts and makes you want to move, i swear i have a bruise coming just from having it demonstrated

[Rob Hannis]

Just choke them out, don't worry about hooks. If they are grabbing lapels it doesn't make a great deal of difference you can still get the choke especially the clock choke like rob t mentioned. Or just choke them without the gi.

If you want the hooks in then lift them up or roll them to get past a tight turtle

[BiggBodyBrougham]

Hi,

Remember, what they are doing is defending the pin. So they are guilty, if you like, of passivity. Remember, that in comps this is fine and normal and it is then up to the ne waza specialist to be able to break open the turtle.

Try this:
-put your chest on their back and come to the side, pushing diagonally down into them.
-reach under their head, across the front of their arms, and grab the far elbow.
-reach over to their far leg and hold the foot where the shoe laces would be.
-pull the foot up over their backside.
-push forward, pulling the elbow toward you.
-drive sideways across them, causing them to collapse.

I use this as my main breakdown against a turtled up judo player. A lot of the time they will just try to scramble back to the turtle, but you have that time to do something, often by threatening a pin.

Jon

I think this is kinda what I do when I find someone staying in the turtle postion. I kinda figured this one out one my own since I was always rollin with a guy who keep ballin' up on me. I would try to get my hooks in but since im so tall I would ride high and sometimes get thrown on my back. So I just started switching to the side and reaching under their face or chest and grabbing their wrist with one hand and reach under their belly and grab the back of their calf and bring both iunder and into my direction causing them to fall on their back or side and I could get side control easy. Sometimes they will try to stick the leg out and get a base but you can just reach over and grab the arm and then roll em the opp. way. Works pretty well for me and I even had some guys copy me and use it on me. LoL... Now to figure out a defense to it?.... BTW this is all no gi

[BiggBodyBrougham]

Hi,

sit on his back, right between his shoulder blades, hook his arm and then forward roll into juji-gatame (cross-body arm lock). This kind of move is the mainstay of the arm locks section of a lot of judo books.

Jon

Any vidz of this tech? I can see the turtle and the juji-gatame but cant see how to connect the 2? When u say sit on his back do you mean facing his head or facing the arm your locking and then roll? I wouldnt mind adding this to my arsenal.... thx

[David Butlin]

one little tip i picked up off eraldo paes today:

when you have the harness, the underhook hand cups the hand that's around the neck,but the really special party is the thumb of the hand round the neck, point the BIG knuckle of the thumb upwards and drive it into your opponents solar plexus.

you will be surprised how much this fucking hurts and makes you want to move, i swear i have a bruise coming just from having it demonstrated


Big Nog taught that at his seminar in Southamptonback in 2003/2004 also for the guillotine. Really fuckin hurt when he demonstrated it!!!

D

[Duchman]

If its judo rules, it is and will ever be very hard. No time to cook them, fast stand up. No pressure to the jaw etc.

[The Natural]

Big Nog taught that at his seminar in Southamptonback in 2003/2004 also for the guillotine. Really fuckin hurt when he demonstrated it!!!

D

Anywhere i can see this?

I cant fully get my head around this but this harness position is something that i have been trying to use more often in training and anything to 'tweak' the technique would be appreciated!!

[Rob T]

Another good tip for the harness control is to grip with the hand of the choking arm (the arm which is over their shoulder) on the bottom. This makes it much harder for your opponent to stop you getting that hand up to the shoulder/collarbone/gi collar, putting you one step closer to the choke.

Picked that up off a Marcelo instructional I think.

[Duchman]

Another good tip for the harness control is to grip with the hand of the choking arm (the arm which is over their shoulder) on the bottom. This makes it much harder for your opponent to stop you getting that hand up to the shoulder/collarbone/gi collar, putting you one step closer to the choke.

Picked that up off a Marcelo instructional I think.

That is how the harness is suppost to be done.......

otherwise its not the harness

[Rob T]

A lot of people don't do it like that though. I'm just trying to help them.

[Duchman]

well dont.. its much easier if no one does it correct

[WindsorMMA]

Just a small one i picked up. when sat to the side of them, put your arm closest there feet over there back and under there arm. This will make them arm roll you (old judo move they cant resist) The trick is, with your other hand drive it under there arm closest you and over there head as they roll. you should end up with them on there back and laid across them. Ps you might have one arm under them. If you do, make s fist and lean on them so your fist in the center of there back (this hurts). Move your leg closest there feet across them and get full mount.