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Simon Hayes
01-05-2009, 11:10 PM
I have very defined views about the Belt and Grading system of our art,
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

One person who i think has exactly the correct opinions on Belts and Gradings is Renzo Gracie Black Belt,BJJ Scholar and one of the most highly respected teachers and authorities on the art,John Danaher.

In my opinion he has written the best and most exact article on the system,and i agree with everything he says 100%
This quote is from Mr Danaher,written in Renzo and Roylers book
"Brazilian Jiu Jitsu,Theory and Technique".Incidentally a superb book for beginners and advanced alike.

"Most martial arts have a system of belts or similar ranks by which a student may assess his level of development.Brazilian Jiu Jitsu tracing its roots back to Maeda’s influence Shares the Japanese system of belts.The belt system begins with White belt and progresses through blue,purple,brown,black,and various degrees of black, up to ,red belt for those whose influence and fame takes them to the pinnacle of the art.Compared with other styles,there are a relatively low number of belt grades in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

Most styles have different grades within a belt colour,so that one can be a third stage orange belt,for example.This plentitude of belts levels ensures that students have a sense of constantly moving forward,since they are often being given a new level.By way of contrast,the student of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu must often endure long years holding the same rank.Few make it even to purple belt,with black belt being truly elite status.

What distinguishes the Brazilian system from others is its extreme INFORMALITY.There is no precise,agreed upon set of rules that determines who is a blue belt,who is a purple belt,and so forth.Part of the reason for this is the complete lack of forms,or kata (pre-arranged,choreographed sets of movements containing the idealised movements of the style in question,typically a collection of kicks,punches,blocks,and the like performed solo),in the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu system.Most Martial Arts put a lot of emphasis upon learning these katas,this is often taken to be indicative of progress.One might try to differentiate grades in terms of numbers of moves that a student knows. Such a method is clearly inadequate.

It is often pointed out that a purple belt knows almost as many moves as a black belt – he simply does not perform them as well, or combine them aswell, or at the correct time. Also, some fighters do very well with a small collection of moves that they can apply well in any situation – should they be ranked lower that another fighter who knows a lot of moves but applies none of them well? A more objective method is to test fighting skill. If one fighter always defeats another when they grapple, this might be taken as firm evidence that he deserves the higher rank. Yet it is not always so simple. What if he is far heavier and stronger and this is the only reason that he prevails in sparring sessions? What if he is technically inferior? You can see that there are no easy answers to the question of what criteria we can offer for a given belt ranking.

Rather, the extreme informality of the Brazilian style is a direct reflection of the fact that it is impossible to provide clear cut rules as to how people ought to be graded. The most we can do is to provide very general criteria. The individual decision must be left to an experienced instructor who will take a range of criteria into account. For example, the size and strength of the student, depth of technical knowledge, ability to apply it in sparring sessions and competition, how he compares with students of other ranks both inside and outside his school, his ability to teach and so on. In general Brazilian Jiu Jitsu takes a very CONSERVATIVE stance toward promotion. This is a direct reflection of the fact that it is primarily a fighting style. It makes no sense to promote someone to a high rank if they cannot fight well – after all, should a highly ranked fighter be defeated it is a bad reflection on the school. So then, the two principle features of the Brazilian ranking system are it’s INFORMALITY and it’s CONSERVATISM.

To really know a given move one needs to learn not just the basic movements, but be able to perform them on an opponent who is resisting as hard as he can. This comes not from a book, but from time spent on the mat in hard training. A true sense of your level of development is had by training and competing with other practitioners and drawing comparisons with your own game."

Duchman
03-05-2009, 06:48 PM
having trained at allot of places, and with different people. Respect to everyone. John danaher is truly a class of his own when it comes to teaching and the way he brings it over. Was very fortunate to take private lesson from him and several group classes in NYC.

Wiegieboard
10-05-2009, 08:27 PM
Very enjoyable read.

piratebrido
13-05-2009, 10:04 PM
Agreed. The less 'rules' the better. Of course, as BJJ continues to grow I unfortunately think we are going to see changes towards the TMA belt system. I am sure we have all heard or seen changes where this is already happening, from set criteria, gradings, distance learning and the like.

The one thing I greatly admire from submission grappling is that without a gi you have no need to wear a belt, which doesn't make belts important.

I would like to see belts gone altogether. Anyone think the same, or would like to say why they think belts are important?

Wiegieboard
14-05-2009, 07:21 PM
Interestng thoughts Brido. Were you thinking along the lines of a competetive ranking system like in the way that MMA is going?

Daniel-San
26-05-2009, 10:12 AM
I believe Shooto has a ranking based on competition aswell...

s33nyboy12
06-06-2009, 10:10 AM
having less belts makes it harder to get the next belt, not including stripes that is and sometimes makes me feel like there is a massive difference between me and the blue belts. But the system works and the post was a good read.

Iconoclast
29-06-2009, 09:55 PM
I was pleasantly surprised to find so few belt rankings in BJJ.

Less is more.

Maccavelli
09-07-2009, 08:57 PM
Great read, cheers Simon.

Adasko
17-07-2009, 04:08 AM
so, what's the thing with Red Belt in BJJ?
i have only seen Helio Gracie wearing one.
where does Red & Black belt stand against Black one with Red bar?
does the bar color matter anyway?

http://www.eatnplay.com.my/wp-content/uploads/kyra-gracie.jpg

:D

Rob T
17-07-2009, 09:01 AM
so, what's the thing with Red Belt in BJJ?
i have only seen Helio Gracie wearing one.
where does Red & Black belt stand against Black one with Red bar?
does the bar color matter anyway?

http://www.eatnplay.com.my/wp-content/uploads/kyra-gracie.jpg

:D

Black with a red bar indicates a black belt who teaches.

A black and red belt (alternating stripes) is something like 6th or 7th Dan I think. Red belt is 9th Dan (maybe also 8th).

Helio (and some others) are 10th Dan. I believe it's been said before there will be no more, it is reserved for the creators of the art.

Adasko
18-07-2009, 05:09 PM
alright, cool stuff :)
but why Renzo Gracie gave Red&Black Belt to Carlos Gracie if he is 'just' Black Belt himself :confused:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrGNF_pLhzY

Rob T
19-07-2009, 01:03 PM
The degrees are basically just awarded by time served so it doesn't really matter who presented it, I guess.

Simon Hayes
24-11-2009, 03:54 PM
For Adam M

liamwandi
24-11-2009, 04:27 PM
Excellent Read! Thanks Simon.

facetofootstyle
24-11-2009, 05:41 PM
One thing I like about the bjj belt system, is that it gives you something to aspire to.

I would also imagine (as im just a bjj noob)that it would give a great feeling of achievement as belts arent just handed out you have to work hard for them.

not to keen on a whipping though haahahha

AdamM
24-11-2009, 08:03 PM
For Adam M

thanks Simon.

Interesting read.
I have had a chance to train with black belts from lots of systems over the years. Some from very formal, but not particularly conservative systems (thinking particularly of family orientated karate / kickboxing clubs), some very informal like competitive kickboxers, right through to the other end of the scale, a Kendo San Dan which is super conservative and unparalleled in its formality.

BJJ seems unusual in repsect of being both informal and conservative. I don't know what prevents more money oriented instructors starting to charge for gradings, or giving gradings too easily in order to motivate and keep students.
Perhaps because the community seems from the outside to be quite close nit and self regulating. What ever the reason, at the moment the system seems to work.

What I wonder, and this is partly why I started my other thread (probably best to continue this one as that excellent article is at the top) is that as the sport grows on the back of MMA's growth, is there a danger of it becomeing both formalised (structured syllabus' help retain casual students) and less conservative with tags being added? I do hope not, as I'm sure current practitioners also hope.

How does the suggestion of BJJ in the Olympics make practitioners feel?
Look at what has happened to TKD over the last decade. I know it's a concern to Kendoka when their sport is mentioned in the same sentance as Olympics.

Also, is BJJ better taught as purely sport of self defense as well? I ask because I worry that, as with many formerly proud arts, the "self defense" dollar is a tempting one to go after and it's too easy for good instructors to go over to the dark side and teach techniques that work graet in a sporting environment but are more danger than help to the practitioner in the street.

Finally, I'd like to say I'm very impressed that, despite how nasty this forum can be sometimes, everyone seems to be taking my enquirys in the spirit they are intended, that is genuine respectful discussion.

(where's the bowing smiley when you need one)

chris_car3
24-11-2009, 08:29 PM
having only been doing bjj for about a year i havent even thought about belts but i agree with a previous point in that if i ever do reach blue belt it will feel like a massive achievement whereas getting to 2nd dan in shotokan karate and 1st dan in shuko kai didnt feel like such an achievement as there was so many grades which were relatively easy to achieve. (i still like bein a black belt in something tho ussssaaaahhh lol)

Meerkatsu
25-11-2009, 12:07 AM
Top female grappler Hillary Willaims posted this on her Facebook account, I hope she won't mind me repeating it here:

Ah, the belt system. General pattern, or so I hear, is that you only want two belts: your blue, and your black. The other two are usually fought against, protested, and avoided like crazy.

Now I've found myself in a delicate, and quite confusing, position. I got my purple belt just one year and ten months into my jiu jitsu career. Fast as hell, right? Yeah, that's what I said during attempts to return it for my blue belt. Now, with a little bit over three years, I've gotten a bit further through the stripes, but thankfully I am still long from the dooky belt. On one hand, I have people telling me, "No one can be a purple belt in three years! You're not legit!" while at the same time I have people saying, "You freaking sandbagger! Get a brown belt already!" I just want to not worry about it and keep getting better, isn't that okay? It's a bit of a mind fuck, to be honest.

I'm a higher rank, yet considerably physically weaker than most of my training partners. Yes, BJJ uses technique over strength. Note the fine print: once you've reached badass status. I have yet to reach such status. Wanting a nice, flowing roll, I often find myself defending my life as I get manhandled with a vicious combination of both strength and technique. Yes, purple belt, yes, I've won a couple tournaments, but yes, I have ovaries. Let's play nice, folks. I get embarrassed sometimes to wear a striped up purple, only to find myself getting wrecked by blues. I have to remember it's a different situation against anyone my strength/gender, but still frustrating.

To be honest, I hate the variation in belt standards. I could name several purple and brown belts that it's just absurd that they still have their belts wasting around their gis. All it does is make sure they win that one last title instead of pushing them at a level they deserve to be at. At the same time, there's so many gift wrapped blue belts and purchased black belts (they come in a package deal with ego and beer belly) that it makes me sick to see the sport get watered down. And people, for some silly reason, think that belt rank is easily determined from tournaments. No, my friend. That's only the best part of your game, all the parts that you suck at you left at home (hopefully). The technique, in all it's glorious and horrible forms, is best evaluated on the mats, every day, by the person's instructor.

"Respect the higher rank."

What a load of shit. I don't care what color you have around your waist, respect must be earned and reciprocated. If you're a brown belt that hurts new white belts to feed your ego, don't expect me to listen to you, let alone bow to you. If you're a blue belt that asks questions, rolls to learn and not to "win," and is always positive, man, allow me to bow first.

I don't know who said it (people say Renzo or Royce, my vote is on Renzo based on how cool he is), and it's been quoted 20938203 different ways, but

"The belt only covers two inches of your ass, the rest is up to you."

Valeu.

Wiegieboard
25-11-2009, 12:47 AM
Enjoyed reading that.

TheFreak
25-11-2009, 01:48 AM
i love reading this stuff. anymore about?

slideyfoot
25-11-2009, 08:53 AM
How does the suggestion of BJJ in the Olympics make practitioners feel?
Look at what has happened to TKD over the last decade. I know it's a concern to Kendoka when their sport is mentioned in the same sentance as Olympics.

From what I've read on the net (I babble at length myself here (http://www.slideyfoot.com/2009/10/bjj-olympics.html)), BJJ has very little chance of reaching Olympic status. There are many who would like to see it at Rio 2016 (which is impossible, as the new events for that Games are already decided, rugby and golf), presumably because it would result in wider exposure for BJJ. Still, that could be achieved in other ways, such as a BJJ tournament in parallel with Rio 2016 (similar to what wushu did during Beijing 2008), or simply from media attention during the Games.

Submission grappling is far better placed, due to support from FILA, and would also circumvent some of the 'watering down' issues, as BJJ would remain separate. It would just be one of several grappling styles that could give you the tools to compete in that event, along with judo, SAMBO, wrestling etc.


Also, is BJJ better taught as purely sport of self defense as well? I ask because I worry that, as with many formerly proud arts, the "self defense" dollar is a tempting one to go after and it's too easy for good instructors to go over to the dark side and teach techniques that work graet in a sporting environment but are more danger than help to the practitioner in the street.That debate is being raised by the Gracie Combatives DVDs and accompanying Gracie University site marketed by the Gracie Academy. Lots of threads on the topic: e.g., Bullshido (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82251), EFN (http://www.efnsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=5496.0), NHBGear (http://www.nhbgear.com/forum/index.php/topic,88238.0.html) and Sherdog (http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f12/part-gracies-crazy-938547/), which in turn discuss other issues, especially the dubious nature of online testing.

Duchman
25-11-2009, 06:16 PM
http://davecamarillo.com/blog/?p=8#more-8

a blog about john danaher


and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPJACX5Qvjw

TRIBULUS
26-11-2009, 05:43 PM
Cool stuff, John Danaher is the nuts.

Hywel Teague
26-11-2009, 05:59 PM
where is Danaher from? His accent is really tough to place - not English, not American... Australian?

slideyfoot
26-11-2009, 06:01 PM
New Zealand, as far as I'm aware.

TheFreak
26-11-2009, 06:27 PM
Awesome hair too!

Hywel Teague
26-11-2009, 07:59 PM
New Zealand, as far as I'm aware.
that would make sense

Sir Tapsalot
26-11-2009, 09:27 PM
Danaher's a genius

James

Duchman
27-11-2009, 07:28 PM
only had 3 privates with him, and 2 weeks of group classes...and totally changed my game. hell and everyone around me. cause of the one arm in quilotine, and the chin strap chokes double legs are way more risky now.

funny, i hold that dude in such high regard. and he will never have a clue who i am :P

Simon Hayes
27-11-2009, 07:48 PM
I would like privates from him and Henry Akins.
It would be like training with Darth Vader and Obi Wan.

Sir Tapsalot
27-11-2009, 08:54 PM
Shawn Williams calls the Darce choke "The Danaher" as that's how all the guys who came up at the same time as John, such as himself, Rodrigo Gracie, Matt Serra, Ricardo Almeida etc know it.

I went to 2 of his daytime classes in Feb, and it blew my mind. A completely different approach to conceptualising and expressing BJJ. It's like being taught astrophysics by someone from NASA. And the weird thing about it is that he's extremely economical with his words when teaching. He shows a position twice, explaining the movements, the kazushi, all the fine details in about 2 sentences, and then lets you get on with it. Somehow he's given you an encyclopaedia of info in about 20 words. And not just saying "base" or "posture", but incredibly detailed info and concepts. Your brain has to speed up to be able to catch it all.

And re: Henry Atkins - I tried to organise a private with him last year through Rickson's, but they never got back to me, which was a huge shame. Will try again next year when I'm in LA again.

James