CBJJ rules on dan Grades

[TRIBULUS]

It amazes me that a martial art that is judged primarily on performance through the grades should change the grading criteria so dramatically once the black belt is reached.

Under the current IBJJF rules once you have a black belt the grading process is based solely on time. The only stipulation is that the individual pays $400 for a certificate and then maintains a yearly fee to the IBJJF and attends various courses (that he would also pay for).

Under this system there is no distinction between a guy who gets his black belt and then stops training (but maintains his yearly payments) and an elite level competitor who is winning major tournaments and running a successful academy.

I believe that we can learn a lot from the Judo system of Dan grades and propose the following.

1st Dan to 5th Dan should be based on competition results

100 points needed for promotion

10 points for win by submission in tournament

2 points for win on points in tournament

only 1 promotion per 12 month period allowed

Such a system would encourage more black belts to compete as well as maintain a grading structure based on performance. There is also the added benefit of encouraging fighters to fight for submission rather than grinding our a points or advantage win.

Beyond 5th Dan the system could reward contributions to the sport, success in building academies as well as time served, again a far more constructive system than just paying the fees and serving your time.

[Rob T]

First off, obviously you are in a much better position to comment on this... and it effects you directly whereas I have quite some time to go. That said;

I think it would be ok to say it's based on competition results OR continued active teaching. Money shouldn't be involved at all.

[Sir Tapsalot]

It's a tough one, I definitely see your point regarding paying fees, but I don't necessarily agree that promotions should be based on competition results. BJJ was/is primarily a self defence art (albeit one that is now mostly focussed on sport competition), but aside from that, it does mean that black belts who have no interest in competing (for whatever reasons), but who are still very active in BJJ would be unable to progress any further. There needs to be a better method for checking/ensuring that black belts are still active within the sport. I don't what that method would be, but I think using comp performance shouldn't be the only way to move up through the lower dan grades.

No money should change hands. If these black belts are contributing to the art, then the governing body should be honouring them as a matter of course, not out of profit.

James

[TRIBULUS]

Good points, we could add different points to the system that would allow other contributions to be recognized.

Eg academy wins competition 10 points

Feel free to suggest other points (not including read a book ;) )

[Sir Tapsalot]

Again, I think that we need to look outside of competition to make a judgement. The problem is though that it then becomes a matter of judgement, where at least competition provides something measurable. A school like Rickson's for example doesn't send that many students to competitions, and hasn't had a massive amount of success in that arena (aside from Kron), but black belts from his school such as Dave Kama and Henry Akins have impeccable records as instructors who produce well rounded students. I don't think there's an easy answer to this (though if someone can come up with one then good on them!)

James

[creonte]

smash faggot in club ,10 point

My student he smash faggot in club,5 point

Clock choke no kimono on beach 10 point

Put to sleep Russian puta who visit academie,10 point

Take American student stars an stripes bandana an burn in academie,2 point

slap student who leave for train new place at competition,2 point

make White belt have cauliflower ear,2 point

Dojo invade bitch ass club down Rua,10 point

tape over student tournament footage when borrow camera
of pass spider gwarde with girl I meet at carnival,2 point

student win fight in Rio Heroe,10 point

student who blue belt win advance no gi comp,10 point

[FlameBoy]

/\/\/\

V funny!!!!!

[shakus maximus]

smash faggot in club ,10 point

My student he smash faggot in club,5 point

Clock choke no kimono on beach 10 point

Put to sleep Russian puta who visit academie,10 point

Take American student stars an stripes bandana an burn in academie,2 point

slap student who leave for train new place at competition,2 point

make White belt have cauliflower ear,2 point

Dojo invade bitch ass club down Rua,10 point

tape over student tournament footage when borrow camera
of pass spider gwarde with girl I meet at carnival,2 point

student win fight in Rio Heroe,10 point

student who blue belt win advance no gi comp,10 point

no need for any more suggestions guys as creonte has clock choked the perfect formula

[TRIBULUS]

excellent, I will email the revised list to the IBJJF in the morning.

[J-Sho]

Judo permits people who compete and people who don't to progress. Do you think someone like Winnie cares that there are other 5th dans out there who didn't go to two olympics or do you think he is just happy focusing on his own progress?

In any case, in BJJ, a black belt is a black belt is a black belt, gradations between black belts in bjj until you hit 5/6/7 dan mean relatively little imo - you, Roger Gracie, Andre Galvao, Kron, Sergio Moraes, Jude, Terere and Marc Laimon are all the same grade after all... i don;t thinkmost competitive black belts care about stripes until after they have finished competing (Saulo only recently got his 3rd or 4th stripe for example but has been a black belt for more than a decade).

I'm not sure that many people follow the IBJJF guidelines in this regard, the IGJJF/Helio side don't and seemingly a lot of people within the auspices of the CBJJ sports BJJ world don't either. Roger is a 6 year black belt/6 time world champ but wears no stripes for example.

[Ben]

What a load of crap. But as said above alot of people don't follow it - doesnt Worion give his kids stripes every month?

[Sir Tapsalot]

As J-Sho say, no one really follows the IBJJF guidelines to the letter. Helio and Rorion have always done his own thing (hence Ryron and Rener are 5th and 4th degree respectively), as did Carlson. Relson has now begun following the IBJJF formula a little bit (one of his blackbelts mentioned removing one of his stripes as Relson is now following the IBJJF 3 years per stripe guidance), but I doubt he's giving money to the IBJJF, and tbh I can't see anyone outside of GB America paying either (and even then Carlinhos might let them off).

[TRIBULUS]

Judo permits people who compete and people who don't to progress. Do you think someone like Winnie cares that there are other 5th dans out there who didn't go to two olympics or do you think he is just happy focusing on his own progress?

In any case, in BJJ, a black belt is a black belt is a black belt, gradations between black belts in bjj until you hit 5/6/7 dan mean relatively little imo - you, Roger Gracie, Andre Galvao, Kron, Sergio Moraes, Jude, Terere and Marc Laimon are all the same grade after all... i don;t thinkmost competitive black belts care about stripes until after they have finished competing (Saulo only recently got his 3rd or 4th stripe for example but has been a black belt for more than a decade).

I'm not sure that many people follow the IBJJF guidelines in this regard, the IGJJF/Helio side don't and seemingly a lot of people within the auspices of the CBJJ sports BJJ world don't either. Roger is a 6 year black belt/6 time world champ but wears no stripes for example.

I can't speak for Winston but I care about improving my Judo Dan grade and when I went to a grading recently it got me think about BJJ.
Surely it is positive to encourage black belts to compete more?
Surely it is positive to encourage submission wins in competition?

I see your point about a black belt being a black belt in BJJ but from my point of view the path for improving my grade in Judo is superior to the one mapped out in BJJ.

[piratebrido]

I can't speak for Winston but I care about improving my Judo Dan grade and when I went to a grading recently it got me think about BJJ.
Surely it is positive to encourage black belts to compete more?
Surely it is positive to encourage submission wins in competition?

I see your point about a black belt being a black belt in BJJ but from my point of view the path for improving my grade in Judo is superior to the one mapped out in BJJ.

Why do you feel the need to improve your grade beyond black? What benefits does it bring you?

[Cougar]

cus chicks dig it brido

[TRIBULUS]

Why do you feel the need to improve your grade beyond black? What benefits does it bring you?

I suppose the same benefits you get from going from blue to purple or purple to brown. A sense of achievement, motivation, nice shiny new belt.

[TRIBULUS]

Also this isn't all about me and my own motivation, it's about finding a better system than the one currently offered by the IBJJF. The British Judo model seems to be more constructive.

[Sir Tapsalot]

The BJA model works because the have already established the idea of being graded by the association. BJJ is graded by an individual who knows the student, so going to a more association based system (for dan grades) would be a big jump.

[Simon Hayes]

I think the point of this thread is being misunderstood.

BJJ has a belt system which is fantastic-it is based purely on
performance and ability and no money changes hands.

This changes after the black belt has been awarded.

Suddenly it changes,degrees are awarded for 'time served'
and money needs to be paid to an organisation.(If the black belt
decides he would like degrees).

I grade in Judo as a blackbelt,not because I really want to move up the ranks
(although that is a happy by-product) but because once a month I can go to
a grading with other blackbelt and have a scrap under competition conditions.
its great fun and very challenging.And because its not a big competition it is usually over in 3hrs.

It would perhaps encourage BJJ black belts to continue competing if doing so
had an effect on their ranking as for some,with the system as it is now there is little motivation to carry on competing when black has been awarded.Obviously highly motivated guys like the current Top 20 black belts in the world don't need any extra motivation to compete but there are a lot of black belts world wide that do.

I agree with Sir Tapsalot that not all instructors should have to compete and that some instructors focus on other parts of our art,and they shouldn't be penalised.

I just think awarding degrees for 'time served' is not in the original spirit of BJJ.

[Gareth]

smash faggot in club ,10 point

My student he smash faggot in club,5 point

Clock choke no kimono on beach 10 point

Put to sleep Russian puta who visit academie,10 point

Take American student stars an stripes bandana an burn in academie,2 point

slap student who leave for train new place at competition,2 point

make White belt have cauliflower ear,2 point

Dojo invade bitch ass club down Rua,10 point

tape over student tournament footage when borrow camera
of pass spider gwarde with girl I meet at carnival,2 point

student win fight in Rio Heroe,10 point

student who blue belt win advance no gi comp,10 point

/end thread.

[Sir Tapsalot]

Possibly some of the problem with this is due to how revered the black belt is in BJJ. It is seen in many eyes as the ultimate goal, where as in Judo, the black belt is simply another rung on the ladder (that's not to denigrate the belt and achievement). So you're more likely to get Judo BBs entering grading comps etc because they're "still on the path" and have nothing to lose.

[Simon Hayes]

good point and I certainly view my BJJ belt as a much higher achievement than my judo belt.

Judo has its own problems too-The new grading system for coloured belts has
changed that art in a very negative way.

The old coloured belt gradings for judo at the budokwai were massively entertaining-it was carnage!,unfortunately they are gone forever now.......

[Sir Tapsalot]

In an ideal world you have a system that recognises the contributions and efforts of all black belts - from those who compete, to those who run their own academies, and to those who simple turn up to class in the same way they have done since white belt and just train. All play a valuable role in the growth and development of BJJ. Some contributions are more visible then others, but all are necessary.

What that system is though that recognises them all, I don't know.

James

[Simon Hayes]

perhaps a system that stops at blackbelt,with no degrees or dans-
making blackbelt the highest level.

That's a system a lot of bjj blackbelts use already (the guys who've been black belts for years and years yet don't wear stripes on their belts).

[TRIBULUS]

A system without degrees does nothing to encourage Black belts to compete or fight for submission.

If we had a similar system to Judo where Black belts meet up once a month to grade then surely this would push the sport forwards.

I see the point about non competitive black belts not progressing under the system I suggested initially, maybe the time rules could apply for those that didn't want to compete.

I also see the point that no-one really takes any notice of the CBJJ's rules but at the end of the day it is the recognised governing body of the sport (at the moment)

[J-Sho]

Perhaps we could group black belts into those who need to be distinguished (i.e. the red/black and red belts) from your average joe black belt based on a number of criteria that actually mean something/indicate your contibution to BJJ be it as a sport, as self defence, as a component of MMA?

*Did you found the art, i.e. you are one of the 5 Gracie Brothers?

*Did you have significant input into developing the art?

*Did you create a new sport?

*Did you bring BJJ to the mass public's attention

*Did you define or redefine an element of the art e.g. BJJ for self defence, for mma, for sport

*Did you introduce and grow the art in a new country or countries or within major cities or regions of a large country?

*Did you revolutionise an aspect of the sport - did you change the playing field so that others had to adapt

*Have you been training a long, long time. like really long, like since the 50's & 60's?

*Are you a multiple time world, masters or seniors champion (No gi, gi, MMA)?

*Have you developed a significant number of successful mma or sports bjj practioneers

*Is every black belt ever asked agreed that you are the Ne Plus Ultra of BJJ

Did you introdce Acai usage or were the first person to say porra and through the photo hand pose?

*Have you built a really significant sized school or network of academies?

*Did you revolutionise the sport of BJJ, building and consolidating a calendar of tournaments?

Did you revolutionise the way the sport was taught (the mechanisms and media used?

Just a few examples. Everyone else should just be a black belt imo.

[TRIBULUS]

J-Sho, do you see a benefit to black belts from all academies fighting each other on a regular basis or is it enough that the elite compete regularly?

[Duchman]

1 Do you have a favorite pet at the school, who teaches most classes and you get the money? 10 points
2 Stil let people come to train, while you complain about the weather? 6 points
3 Make people dril techniques while you read a magazine 5 points
4 Tell your brazilian students more details in portugese than these white faggots. 4 Ponts
5 Up the prices for classes several times a year for no reason. 3 Points
6 Say you are working on tournaments days. No need to see white and blue belt get smashed 2 points.
7

10 points or more you get to 2nd dan.

[Sergei]

for leglock purple belt, 5 point.

If this true sergei already red and white motherfuckers.

[J-Sho]

J-Sho, do you see a benefit to black belts from all academies fighting each other on a regular basis or is it enough that the elite compete regularly?

i would like to see more purple, brown and black belts competing in the UK for sure. I dont thinkt he number of purple belts competing has increased that significantly over the last 2 years, let alone brown and black belts.

My post/point is, black belts are all shades of grey up to a point, there are individuals who make significant achievements in or contributions to this art who need to stand apart from other black belts adn unless one is such an individual, i don't think the red/black or redbelt is appropriate.

[TRIBULUS]

I accept your point and should point out again that I am not talking about this in relation to my own black belt, merely pointing out that from my own positive experiences within the Judo structure I think there is a better alternative to the current system.