WAKO GB MMA Dept - please read!

[fishface]

I posted a thread a few weeks back in the Pro MMA forum and sadly no one took it up, as I feel this is a serious issue for you guys in favour of a Governing Body for MMA.

In this month's Fighters magazine October 09, Page 36 is a piece about the 'All new WAKO GB Initiative', whereby WAKO have appointed John C Higo, UK Director of MMA, operating under the guidance of WAKO GB Ring Sports.

To summarise:-

1 - Chris has got the task of organising recognised WAKO certified courses to help MMA coaches deliver proper MMA classes and in order to qualify for the first course you must be a Dan Grade in a martial art, this is critical.

2 - it is not performance based certificate, it merely teaches you the correct procedures to follow whilst teaching and coaching, starting with basic and going to advanced level.

3 - referee's and judges courses will be organised and added to the WAKO GB database

4 - WAKO GB are looking to develop an official WAKO MMA syllabus, which they can follow if they require; if clubs already have their own it will be inspected by WAKO.

That's the main thrust of the article, grab yaself a copy and read it for yourselves.

I have posted this here so the guys involved in getting a GB set up for MMA what they will be up against, the British arm of a WORLD Governing Body for kickboxing, jumping on the MMA bandwagon. WAKO is a huge organisation and if they get there first (looks like they have already) then where will it end, how many GB's will there be for MMA and who's to say which is the best.

We all know on here that we are the UK's premier MMA practitioners and movers and shakers and here we see MMA being diluted and watered down for the masses.

Serious people reading this can PM me for an contact email for wako MMA dept.


F

[bjjchamp]

i've been trianing in martial arts for twenty years, started thai boxing 14 years ago, wrestled for ten years and bjj for twelve years purple belt , do i qualify to do your coarse?

Thanks

[Luke]

i've been trianing in martial arts for twenty years, started thai boxing 14 years ago, wrestled for ten years and bjj for twelve years purple belt , do i qualify to do your coarse?

Thanks

Apparently not, because you need to be a dan grade in Kung Fu/Karate, lol!

[Antonio Santorelli]

Lee Hasdell run the mma part of the ISKA and he is running courses for this. WAKO arent the 1st and wont be the last.

[Shaolin Exile]

I find the idea of a black belt beign compulsory quite laughable. We're talking about a combat sport which has no grades and where there are talented fighters who could probably coach as well who could easily have been training for 7 years or more and (because of the nature of competitive MMA) probably put in many times the number of training hours put in by most TMA black belts)

I got a black belt in kung fu after trainiing for about 4 years and I've done about 5 years of MMA training. I wouldn't consider myself fit to teach either. I would rate my ability in kung fu around the brown belt mark and IMHO should never have been given a black belt; and my MMA ability is much less than that. According to WAKO (well named, eh?) I could teach MMA but a fighter with no grades but a 10-0-0 fight record couldn't

[thaison]

Wako/Iska/Wka kickboxing organisations jumping on MMA to make money. Im not buying into th for the good of the sport shit, its people trying to make money which will probably leed to segregation and the sport suffering the same way kickboxing has. They will be quick to charge for coaching credentials, judging courses etc, sanctioning fee's for fights, insurance the list goes on. Im all for one unified governing body but in all likely hood thats not going to happen, more likely to end up with several groups set up bickering between themselves and offering titles to everyone.

I think we would be better the way it is where the show/promoter runs there show if they want titles its the show title.

[marc goddard]

James Doolan calls it correct.

[iandean]

Wako/Iska/Wka kickboxing organisations jumping on MMA to make money. Im not buying into th for the good of the sport shit, its people trying to make money which will probably leed to segregation and the sport suffering the same way kickboxing has. They will be quick to charge for coaching credentials, judging courses etc, sanctioning fee's for fights, insurance the list goes on. Im all for one unified governing body but in all likely hood thats not going to happen, more likely to end up with several groups set up bickering between themselves and offering titles to everyone.

I think we would be better the way it is where the show/promoter runs there show if they want titles its the show title.

QFT

I wish the kickboxing orgs would leave us alone

There is a reason why KB and MT in this country is seen as a joke !

Maybe the real MMA power players need to bury the hatchet and meet up (Although that won't happen)

[SSJ]

Please do not throw the ISKA into the pile, the ISKA are doing to many positive things for MMA worldwide to throw away.

[tanswell]

John higos WAKO thing is a joke.....period.

[Shaolin Exile]

I'm confused. Isn't John Higo part of the Straight Blast organisation?

[tanswell]

He , or Leeds cage have anything to do with SBG.

I coached his wife, Lisa, for Total Combat european title and G Fight World title tournaments. Both of which she won.

Now he is coaching the coaches in MMA,

Absoloutly nothing to do with me or SBG.

[Shaolin Exile]

Thanks. That explains where my confusion comes from

[Plasticpaddy]

I poted this before but it got deleted, so il post it again:)

FUCK OFF WAKO WANKERS

Do your research about who is teaching what before getting all bertie big bollocks.
You clearly dont have a scooby.

[johnchigo]

Why do people feel threatened by Wako, is it because its the biggest and oldest Kickboxing organisation in the world ? Is it because in nearly every country in the world the governments speak to us first and usually follow our suggestions ? Wako believes in formats and set criteria everything written down and presented correctly, this is called professionalism and the people in charge like to deal with professionals, its the only way to move forward.
We provide insurance and correct structured coaching methods, there are many former wako kickboxers out on the mma scene and their are many more wishing to follow, surely the diehard mma men are not bothered about the long shiny pants lot (By the way Karl, Anna still has my long shiny pants from when she won the wakos this year Lol) and she can keep them has a pressie from me, she earned them! MMA is mixed martial arts, its what a lot of people have been doing for a lot of years and long may it continue. I am an administrator l spend many hours organising the way Wako wishes to go with mma, then l present it to Wako ringsports and they amend, accept or reject as they see fit. I personally do not teach the grappling l have grappling instructors who do that, l am still very much a pupil and its great, l spend 7 days a week in my gym teaching kickboxing and working the stand up side of fighting with my fighters one on one coaching, when not doing that l am improving the facilities that we offer, l am usually covered in cement,sawdust or paint.What l am basically saying is if you don't like wako don't get involved, my life will just go on like it always has training martial arts.All the best to everybody, learn and train !

[Bugsy]

I worry about TMA instructors who have no qualification or knowledge to coach Muay Thai, Greco, freestyle, Muay Thai or BJJ jumping on the bandwagon and devaluing other awesome coaching happening around the country.

Example: http://www.5-elements.co.uk/mma-grappling-mixed-martial-arts-training

[fishface]

'is it because its the biggest and oldest Kickboxing organisation in the world ? '

WAKO is a kickboxing organisation NOT Mixed Martial Arts!

Lee Hasdell is involved with ISKA and rightly so they have chosen one of the UK's pioneers in MMA, who was involved in MMA right from the very start having competed in MMA events way before many of us knew what MMA was.

I don't like the fact that an organisation that is primarily to do with kickboxing jump onto the MMA bandwagon, regardless of the fact that governments speak to you first.

Nor do I like the proviso that you have to be a Dan grade in a martial art, that to me screams MC DOJO over anything else, irrespective of WAKO setting up criteria's and syllabus's.

F

[Rob T]

What a load of shit, lol.

[DoubleJab]

1 - in order to qualify for the first course you must be a Dan Grade in a martial art, this is critical.


Why? Does it matter which martial art? How is someone with a Dan grade in TKD anymore prepared for the course than someone who has never graded but has trained in MMA for a few years?

I'm not taking the piss, this is a genuine question. You want to be taken seriously, 'governments go to you', a serious answer would be appreciated.

[johnchigo]

I must aplogise for not being online sooner to answer the relevant questions you are asking, been very busy with my fighters and training working etc.
Everyone seems to question the dan grade set criteria for coaching courses, its just a case of showing that you have put your time in and have atleast the basic structure of how to teach and coach, which most reputable associations do with their various courses and really if you have spent any time in the martial arts you will have picked up a blackbelt or two, obviously if you come from somewhere that does'nt have gradings and you can verify your pedigree, we would welcome you on our courses, when the magazine article first appeared l was inundated with people wanting to attend, but the majority did not fulfill the criteria other than having some mma fighters box set and these people are not what we want in wako mma.Could have made loads of money but chose not to, this is a long game plan that we have and we want to get it right for the future and the people who follow in our footsteps. We are organising and have held courses for coaching and officials,
these have all been filmed by wako and l am constantly subjected and rightly so, to feedback from them. My detractors do not realise how much experience we have in martial arts at all levels, not to mention fight experience and officiating experience, we have'nt just suddenly appeared like so many so called mma instructors.Wako are only doing amateur level and we are doing it our way, if you don't want to get involved then don't, but rest assured a lot of your future champions at professional level will have come from our Testing Grounds. All the very best to everybody we wish you well.

[John@FightersOnly]

WAKO have appointed John C Higo, UK Director of MMA

how is this guy qualified to be "UK Director of MMA'? I don't know a lot about him, other than that he's pretty much a pure kickboxing guy, but the details of the MMA course offered via his website are a bit confusing. Anyone got a dan grade in submission wrestling? Coz if you dont, this course isnt open to you.

Quote:


My name is John C. Higo you may or may not have heard of me, I have been appointed The World Association of Kickboxing Organisations (WAKO) UK Director of Mixed Martial Arts (MMA), operating under the guidance of WAKO GB Ring sports.

My job is to help promote and develop MMA within the UK whilst ensuring that we instil the outstanding expertise and professionalism of which we already witness within WAKO at home and abroad. Correct instruction and coaching at grass roots level is very important and I and my team have been given the task of organising recognised WAKO certified courses to help this new burgeoning ring sport grow in a strong and positive way for the future good of mixed martial arts.

In order to qualify for these courses you must be a Dan grade within a martial art, this is a necessary bedrock requirement to show you have the background to evaluate and fully understand the structured coaching course laid before you and the best way to take this knowledge and integrate it into your present system. This is not a performance based certificate it merely teaches you the correct procedures to follow whilst teaching and coaching starting with a basic level certificate through to advanced level certification.

can anyone tell us what qualifies this guy to certificate people in MMA, or how these 'dan grade' guys are going to begin teaching basic MMA after attending this course? Who instructs the BJJ at this place?

[John@FightersOnly]

Everyone seems to question the dan grade set criteria for coaching courses, its just a case of showing that you have put your time in and have atleast the basic structure of how to teach and coach




really if you have spent any time in the martial arts you will have picked up a blackbelt or two,


just seen this but its relevant to my earlier post; if a guy spentfive years training in boxing, greco roman and submission wrestling, he would pick up exactly 0 belts, yet be far more suited to 'qualify' in MMA than a guy who had his wing chun gold sash and third level dan in japanese jiu jitsu.


obviously if you come from somewhere that does'nt have gradings and you can verify your pedigree, we would welcome you on our courses,

how would you go about verifying someone who didnt hold dan grades?


when the magazine article first appeared l was inundated with people wanting to attend, but the majority did not fulfill the criteria other than having some mma fighters box set and these people are not what we want in wako mma.


unless i have misinterpreted 'mma fighters box set', this means you dont want people in wako mma who have the standard set of skills that mma fighters have?

[johnchigo]

you have obviously responded to my long overdue post, but please read it, then present your argument to who and what qualifies me, the original article in a rival magazine gave a little insight to where l came from and where l want to go with wako mma.

[John@FightersOnly]

you have obviously responded to my long overdue post, but please read it, then present your argument to who and what qualifies me, the original article in a rival magazine gave a little insight to where l came from and where l want to go with wako mma.

i havent read the article you are referring to, was it in MMAU, Fighters, Combat or Fightsport?

I'm not trying to be smart, its a genuine query. As I understand it you are an accomplished kickboxing coach but not an MMA coach; surely its not up to me to "present [my] argument as to who and what qualifies [you]"? I cant present any argument to qualify you as an MMA coach because I dont know any of your MMA qualifications

[johnchigo]

Thats a good point John, my mma qualifications, l like everyone else have'nt got any, our courses at wako are designed to educate people to coach correctly and follow all the health and safety rules that are required, we have our technical advisors from BJJ and Submission wrestling and they actually demonstrate the correct way to teach grappling basics, most of the people that are attending our courses are long serving kickboxing instructors and thai instructors who wish to transision to mma, or develop another side to their gyms existing syllabus.You are more than welcome to attend one of our courses to observe, we are also having affiliated training group sessions 4 times per year, we have one later this month, we just get together with various other gyms and roll and spar and exchange ideas, under the guidance of our advisors.Basically we are just trying to set a standard within wako similar to what we do with the existing wako kickboxing courses and your questions are apreciated, many thanks.

[bean]

How do students progress to a complete MMA game if coaches are basically being shown as you say, grappling basics, and I assume vice versa for striking if they have a grappling based background.

Is the onus then on the coaches to find someone else to train under in say BJJ or striking?

Is there any pass or fail involved in these courses, will your advisers be assessing someone's ability to reteach these basics? As I understand it in the BJJ world it isn't until purple(?) that a student would be allowed to teach a class.

[johnchigo]

We are working and learning all the time and we have fighters out there in mma and we have many people training with us who have fought in all styles and we are peiceing the game together and we do have quite alot of overall fight experience, the gym was packed today, doing spartan workouts and bjj. The idea is to give the stand up coach or the wrestling coach accessible information and back up, but if they are fortunate to get a daily or weekly specific coach then that is a good thing, we beleive in employing specialists for our weaker areas and never assume we have all the answers.Its the way Wako works.

[David Swann]

ISKA wanted to inititiate something similar, where are they now?

I am sure we will continue to do what we do until someone we are happy with comes up with a soloution.

[Rob T]

we have our technical advisors from BJJ and Submission wrestling

Who are they?



we are also having affiliated training group sessions 4 times per year, we have one later this month, we just get together with various other gyms and roll and spar and exchange ideas, under the guidance of our advisors.

Why don't you just do what everyone else who wants to learn does; join a BJJ academy, put on your white belt and train/learn. Then when you get to a decent purple belt level you will be able to teach basics well.


Really, do you think a karate black belt makes someone more qualified to teach MMA than a BJJ purple belt (even blue) and 2 years boxing?

[johnchigo]

We are Gracie Barra no-gi Leeds, with a Gracie instructor, read the full story and then take a pop and as to your question 'No'!

[Rob T]

I did read your posts first. That should be pretty obvious bearing in mind I quoted them.

As for the "no", that is not what your policy seems to indicate with the requirement of a dan grade.

[Hands Of Stone]

Really, do you think a karate black belt makes someone more qualified to teach MMA than a BJJ purple belt (even blue) and 2 years boxing?


and as to your question 'No'!


At least we got that bit cleared up.


The Hands

[BrummyAnimal]

For those who dont know who john Higo is ill clear that up for you ....John runs leeds cage in Yorkshire along with his wife lisa.
John eats sleeps and breathes combat sports hes at the gym every single day teaching and help people of all ages grow as fighters and also as people !
john is an honest stand up guy, that along with WAKO will try and do good things for the sport I and the rest of us love....

Animal

[bean]

No one has questioned the man, they've questioned the organisation. We're free to do so.

[Rob T]

I still don't understand why people have to start being teachers without going through the process of being a student first. Seems these guys are teaching grapping already even though they've only just started training?

[jon]

who are any of us to dictate to another what can or cant be done ????

unless your randy couture or some other world champion then who gives a rats ass what any of us think ??

lets all just get on with some training ;)

[Rob T]

That's great, but the previous posts seem to indicate that guys with a dan grade in an art are being certified as MMA instructors. Is this correct?

What is the minimum level of grappling knowledge required for someone to become an MMA instructor under WAKO?

[blodwyn]

That's great, but the previous posts seem to indicate that guys with a dan grade in an art are being certified as MMA instructors. Is this correct?

What is the minimum level of grappling knowledge required for someone to become an MMA instructor under WAKO?

Dan.. Do you think that anyone should be able to teach MMA?

or would you prefer to learn from anybody?

All we are doing is setting a standard within "WAKO" to meet insurance requirements.

Its not compulsory to be a wako member to fight or teach, if you are happy to go with another instructor, then fine, do that.

[Rob T]

Who is Dan? Can't you just give direct answers to my questions?

[david5]

most of the people that are attending our courses are long serving kickboxing instructors and thai instructors who wish to transision to mma, or develop another side to their gyms existing syllabus.

££££££££££££££££

[Truthseeker]

This is a joke. All your proposing is adding an unnecessay layer of bureaurcracy and control. It would actually stifle the creativity and freedom within MMA practices because coaches would become more concerned about jumping through hoops to get certificates.

[tanswell]

"and if you took time to research you would see that yes karl cornered her in her mma fights but she dominated most of the fights with stand up that john higo taught her"

Not true. :-)

[ShaolinSubz02]

This is a joke. All your proposing is adding an unnecessay layer of bureaurcracy and control. It would actually stifle the creativity and freedom within MMA practices because coaches would become more concerned about jumping through hopes to get certificates.

I think this is pretty much where I stand on this. I trained under a UFC vet for quite some time, a very crafty ground fighter with over 40 Muay Thai fights. He has only ever attained a purple belt in BJJ but is a world class grappler. And no he does not have a BB in Kung Fu (Like I do) but technically and practically he blows me away. Also his teaching is exceptional and unorthodox. I am guessing he would have to prove himself worthy?

Even if he is an exception because of his UFC Vet status, I have taken instruction from lower belts who demonstrate technique at a far superior level than BB instructors in various Martial Arts. I think this needs a rethink

[tinman]

john higo is a great mma coach, hes been in the fight game for years.

[boxingbrit]

Do any of these courses teach paragraphs?

[Jamie Taylor]

Do any of these courses teach paragraphs?

A....haha...hahahahahahahahahahahaha.

[tinman]

i dont know if we should be giving john so much stick,hes already taken lisa to the top. and rosi game improved after working with john.

[Rob T]

i dont know if we should be giving john so much stick,hes already taken lisa to the top. and rosi game improved after working with john.

No one is giving him stick personally, we just want to know more information on how these people are being qualified to teach MMA and what credentials are required of them.

I still don't understand why someone can't give straight answers to the questions regarding the instructors learning to grapple and then teaching it.

[john joe]

john higo is a great mma coach, hes been in the fight game for years.

john higo is a great [kickboxing] coach, hes been in the [kickboxing] game for years.[/QUOTE]

big difference

[Plasticpaddy]

john higo is a great [kickboxing] coach, hes been in the [kickboxing] game for years.

big difference[/QUOTE]

Out of intrest, have you trained with John?

[BrummyAnimal]

i have trained at john higos gym for a long time....he is a very good MMA coach and his kickboxing background is there for all to see.

John knows his shit, he has great coachs at leeds cage helping him with the running of the gym on a day to day basis.
Jon and Neil are awsome grapple/sub coachs !!

I for one am glad that there are people out there like John and the lads at leeds cage trying to teach the proper way and also doing it safe.

A

[tinman]

john higo will be good for the circuit,hes got a world champ already. just give the guy time, his coaching is secound to none.

[Rob T]

Why do people keep saying how good John Higo is when no-one has questioned him at all?

What grappling experience is necessary for someone to be qualified to teach MMA under WAKO?

[paypeHami]

The tragus is a good choice for a peircing but you have to choose yourself. You either wnat it or you dont... I have mine done and it looks cool. If you want it done get it done you wont regret it. As for the tattoo I have no preference x 0_0 x

[john joe]

Out of intrest, have you trained with John?

no; i am based in manchester and there's loads of good kickboxing coaches round here without travelling

[Plasticpaddy]

no; i am based in manchester and there's loads of good kickboxing coaches round here without travelling

True enough.The reason I ask is that expereince of training with John would be a good basis for judging his ability to coach. Be it Kickboxing, MMA, whatever. Best of luck with your training.

[Plasticpaddy]

Why do people keep saying how good John Higo is when no-one has questioned him at all?

What grappling experience is necessary for someone to be qualified to teach MMA under WAKO?

For that matter, what level of grappling expereince is required for anyone to teach MMA? If WAKO have any level isnt that an improvement? Maybe we should consult the UK MMA governing body......;-)

[Rob T]

For that matter, what level of grappling expereince is required for anyone to teach MMA?

I guess it is up to the person looking for coaching to decide, but yes, the same questions can be applied to any MMA coach (or team of coaches).



If WAKO have any level isnt that an improvement?

I think it's a bit different when they are actually giving people a title/qualification (whatever you want to call it) of "MMA instructor". Surely an organisation would want to have high level instructors only? If they give out the title to anyone with a dan grade in any art, that is a bit dodgy and probably just money making don't you reckon?

It's just a question anyway, should be pretty easy to answer.

[Rosi]

John and Lisa are both good friends. As far as I can see, the main idea is to provide a route for kickboxing clubs to get involved in MMA. I don't really see what the big deal is or why people are getting so upset about it. Relax - nobody's trying to take over MMA or tell you what to do! Plenty of room in here for all of us...

[jon]

John and Lisa are both good friends. As far as I can see, the main idea is to provide a route for kickboxing clubs to get involved in MMA. I don't really see what the big deal is or why people are getting so upset about it. Relax - nobody's trying to take over MMA or tell you what to do! Plenty of room in here for all of us...

Wise words indeed well said rosi

[Mad Dog]

I can see the problem, as MMA doesn't have a grading system how do you know who is good/bad/ugly, and who out of those good/bad/ugly should be instructors?

WAKO as a large proffessional body want to get involved and need to set some ground rules for MMA coaches to ensure they are the right people for the job. I guess, coz i dont know, that they presumed most MMA fighters will go to more than one MA instructor from list of MT/KB/K/TKD/Judo/JJ/BJJ to cover their whole fight game, and therefore thought you must have a BB in something to instruct.

What are the other options?

MMA has no grading system (yet) and ability is measured by fight/win ratio, so the best guys should be the top fighters.. this isnt often the case, fighters like to fight not teach.. and being a good fighter doesnt mean you will be a good instructor.

If you went down this route, what about those great instructors who are now getting on a bit (like me), who in their days (before MMA) won loads of comps but are not wanting to jump in the cage with some superfit 20 year old to prove they are a great instructor/coach?

On another forum I suggested setting out an MMA syalbus (mainly for the guys I train, to give them some form of progression) but the issue with this is you could end up with a MMA BB who has never fought in a cage or won a fight.. which makes it seem a bit of a retrograde step.

The only other way I can think of ,measuring it, which follows the way things happen anyway, is that the good fighters will naturally find the good instructors, ("when the student is ready the instructor will appear") so you could base it on the number of clubs wins?

The BB in something is a good pointer, but definately not the right answer.

Suggestions on a postcard to WAKO c/o John Higo?

[bean]

I can see the problem, as MMA doesn't have a grading system how do you know who is good/bad/ugly, and who out of those good/bad/ugly should be instructors?

Does a belt add quality? Does MMA need a grading system?

What I and I think others are coming unstuck with is; to what end will this certify an instructor to teach high level BJJ/MT/Boxing/Wrestling to compliment their coaching in another sport.

And if it isn't high level, what can we expect from these individuals? Is there a system of progression there to advance there skills in that area(s) or is this area left to them?

I feel that unless someone can coach an MMA game or teach me skills that transition to MMA. Then they have failed at the first hurdle anyway. Ultimately they could be certified to the fucking teeth and I would be skeptical of attending an MMA class unless the results as an MMA team were good and their students spoke highly of them. However, if they were a very competent and sucessful coach in a singular sport, I would definately attend specifically for that skillset.

[cmaauk]

Ladies and Gents within the C.M.A.A. we have come up with our own method, but before I quote it I must point out that after talking the John Higo direct on the phone that what they are 'proposing' is not MMA, as we all know it.

Instead it's WAKO's own version of MMA which includes more rules and safety equipment.

Over the pasy few years we have had many 'Instructors' apply for membership claiming BB in MMA, one even claiming 4th Dan!!!!

Yet when I looked into it they were merely a Freestyle club who have never actually fought but just wanted to 'jump on the band wagon'.

So, having spoken with a few of the C.M.A.A. MMA members we came up with a system to use to weed out these type of applicants in that we simply refer them to what we require and if they can match it then great, if not then they go on their way a good luck to them.

Our criteria can be seen for both coach and grades, for those who wish it, here www.mmacoach.co.uk

Constructive criticism accepted with pleasure ladies and gents, everyone may not agree of course but after many discussions it seemed the fairest way for us, again its there if needed and if not then fine - what we won't be doing however is advertising it in the media etc.

Regards to all

Andy. ;-)

[bean]

Do you weight these 10 wins? Could I fight 10 cans, win, and be presented a bb in 'MMA' should I wish to do so?

[cmaauk]

NO 'Bean' if you read the criteria correctly they must be at pre-arranged well known events and they will be verified by our MMA members, may i suggest you research exactly who they are as you actually train with one of them mate!.

[bean]

NO 'Bean' if you read the criteria correctly they must be at pre-arranged well known events and they will be verified by our MMA members, may i suggest you research exactly who they are as you actually train with one of them mate!.

Train has been a very loose word for me in the last couple of years. Aaron can attest to this.

I see, thanks for the clarification.

[cmaauk]

No problem at all pal, take care and get your ass back to the club! lol

[boxingbrit]

You tell him Andy!

I think your idea is closer to a realistic model for mma as it is performance based.

[cmaauk]

Thanks Ian :D

[Mattchoo]

WAKO should just stick to kickboxing, why even try get involved with something that doesnt need an organisation coming in trying to change things that dont need to change which would only lead to segregation and complete watering down of a perfectly good sport! Also no doubt a 'WAKO mma fighter' then wouldnt be allowed to fight under any other banner, competitions or show that WAKO havent given them permission to do much like their fighters cant participate in WKA, ISKA competitions for example or they get kicked out of their squad effectively ;) Which funnily enough has happened to argueably the best kickboxer in many forms this country has got (Michael Page)

[Nawk Soo Cow]

WAKO should just stick to kickboxing, why even try get involved with something that doesnt need an organisation coming in trying to change things that dont need to change which would only lead to segregation and complete watering down of a perfectly good sport! Also no doubt a 'WAKO mma fighter' then wouldnt be allowed to fight under any other banner, competitions or show that WAKO havent given them permission to do much like their fighters cant participate in WKA, ISKA competitions for example or they get kicked out of their squad effectively ;) Which funnily enough has happened to argueably the best kickboxer in many forms this country has got (Michael Page)

You're right, they should stick to kickboxing....

[wuzz]

I dont know if i understand this correctly and i think im pretty intelegent.

Does this mean that an A-class thai boxer with a Brown Belt in BJJ and 5 years exp at international level in wrestling with an MMA record of ? lets say 22-2-0 does not even qualify for the first course.

But some guy with a 1st dan in TKD does?

I have a friend who is a 2nd dan in TKD (pm for details if you think im bs'ing) and he "wouldnt go near MMA as it isnt his sport" but he qualifies for this course!.

*takes a good look at himself in the mirror doubting himself* and says:
"is it just me ...... seriuosly man ...... is it just me"

please help as i either genuinely dont understand or it really is as rediculous as i first thought.

[SlimDavy]

I think it's ridiculous how these bodies think that just because they've got experience in running one sport, that they have the right to Govern/Sanction or be an authority in another... Each sport should have their own respective bodies, and this goes for all the combat sports - Kickboxing, Muay Thai, MMA, etc... Look at the mess that the Martial Arts are in as far as competition goes - you have the WKA/ISKA/WAKO and about 20 other bodies all promoting full contact, semi-contact, light continuous, bloody musical forms??, kata, weapons, etc, and it's lead to a complete watering down of the titles.

Keep MMA separate. The UK's top-MMA people should simply create a Board of Representatives and all agree the rules & regulations, standards and penalties for breaches. It doesn't have to affect smaller promotions from running their own 'Association Championships', but when it comes to National Titles only one is enough....

If something is not done, then somebody like the UFC may just come along and create an official UFC-UK champion, the the sport will be in the hands of one big greedy American corporation.

[Chris Bishop]

[QUOTE=cmaauk;521055]

Our criteria can be seen for both coach and grades, for those who wish it, here www.mmacoach.co.uk

Constructive criticism accepted with pleasure ladies and gents, everyone may not agree of course but after many discussions it seemed the fairest way for us, again its there if needed and if not then fine - what we won't be doing however is advertising it in the media etc.
QUOTE]

Andy, fair play on trying to establish an insurance for MMA. A couple of things I wanted to ask.

1) a requirement of 10 wins across the board is necessary. What about clubs starting out? How do they get insured/qualified? Or do they just go uninsured and unqualified until they get their wins.... it's not really safe guarding the growth of sport for the future is it. Only exisiting clubs with the appropriate wins will be able to regrister.

2)wining is great but it doesn't mean that when a person losses they are crap, just they they fought someone better on the day. You stated that these wins would be looked into to insure integrity (not a white wash) But what happens with close fights, decsions that go against a person? Surely the entire record should be looked at (W-L-D).

3) if sparring (when including hits on the ground) is not covered, then is this not pretty useless as most MMA clubs will carry out sparring including hits on the ground (other wise it's just kickboxing, clinch, and submission grappling.. not MMA really) as part of stress innoculation prior to competition. If this isn't done in the club, then there will be more injuries during competition as people will not be able to adequately 'ride the storm' under pressure.

4) what about clubs practising defense of ground n pound for self defense? Again if you are wanting realistic training, you will isolate this is drilling, but then go live and stress innoculate in sparring. How is this cover by insurance? Or training realistically is seen as uninsurable... and hence we can only drill things and not really know if what we are learning actually works?

Thoughts?


Back to the WAKO debate or even getting a BB in MMA.... why are we trying to say that a coach has to have a BB or an extensive fight record. In boxing (where there is no such thing as a BB), I have seen many great coaches who where not great or top athletes themsleves (Freddie Roach comes to mind), some have no personal ring experience. But what the do have is coaching skills - the ability to take a person from A to B all the way to Z. Boxing Coaches courses seem to not revolve around techniques and drills but coaching theories, communication, etc.... and it's this that I think WAKO and other firms are trying to establish, rather than some meathead who may have skills running a 'fight club' type of arrangement where they just get people to beat up one another.

Thoughts?

[cmaauk]

Andy, fair play on trying to establish an insurance for MMA. A couple of things I wanted to ask.

Hi Chris, i am not trying to establish insurance form MMA? Nobody will cover it at present. I merely investigate in depth when i hear rumours.



1) a requirement of 10 wins across the board is necessary. What about clubs starting out? How do they get insured/qualified? Or do they just go uninsured and unqualified until they get their wins.... it's not really safe guarding the growth of sport for the future is it. Only exisiting clubs with the appropriate wins will be able to regrister.


You will note our plan states that is how we plan to recognise coaches should they require us to. However most don't think it's needed hence this thread.

That aside should insurance ever become available everything will change as it will be the insurer setting the requirements not us or anybody else.



2)wining is great but it doesn't mean that when a person losses they are crap, just they they fought someone better on the day. You stated that these wins would be looked into to insure integrity (not a white wash) But what happens with close fights, decsions that go against a person? Surely the entire record should be looked at (W-L-D).


Agreed, but as i said it won't please everyone.



3) if sparring (when including hits on the ground) is not covered, then is this not pretty useless as most MMA clubs will carry out sparring including hits on the ground (other wise it's just kickboxing, clinch, and submission grappling.. not MMA really) as part of stress innoculation prior to competition. If this isn't done in the club, then there will be more injuries during competition as people will not be able to adequately 'ride the storm' under pressure.


Again agreed, to repeat MMA can't be insured at this time due to the risk of injury being too high regardless of how, when and where.



4) what about clubs practising defense of ground n pound for self defense? Again if you are wanting realistic training, you will isolate this is drilling, but then go live and stress innoculate in sparring. How is this cover by insurance? Or training realistically is seen as uninsurable... and hence we can only drill things and not really know if what we are learning actually works?


Self defence training is fine, even pressure testing techniques is fine so long as the correct PPE is used. However in MMA the lack of PPE is the problem.

[BenA]

I think it's ridiculous how these bodies think that just because they've got experience in running one sport, that they have the right to Govern/Sanction or be an authority in another... Each sport should have their own respective bodies, and this goes for all the combat sports - Kickboxing, Muay Thai, MMA, etc... Look at the mess that the Martial Arts are in as far as competition goes - you have the WKA/ISKA/WAKO and about 20 other bodies all promoting full contact, semi-contact, light continuous, bloody musical forms??, kata, weapons, etc, and it's lead to a complete watering down of the titles.

Keep MMA separate. The UK's top-MMA people should simply create a Board of Representatives and all agree the rules & regulations, standards and penalties for breaches. It doesn't have to affect smaller promotions from running their own 'Association Championships', but when it comes to National Titles only one is enough....

If something is not done, then somebody like the UFC may just come along and create an official UFC-UK champion, the the sport will be in the hands of one big greedy American corporation.

Agreed, but technically and logistically its challenging to get them all together.
Also who would be represented?
just take all willing promotions that have held an event larger than 500 people? or top 10 biggest promotion and convince them to sit down and establish rules? Then just say this is what we think, smaller promotions take it or leave it? Also which promotion would get to host the uk title fights? arguments about money and advertising will ensue.
sorry that came across really negative, im only asking coz i think its a good idea.

[Rob T]

That's great, but the previous posts seem to indicate that guys with a dan grade in an art are being certified as MMA instructors. Is this correct?

What is the minimum level of grappling knowledge required for someone to become an MMA instructor under WAKO?

These questions should be able to be answered with simple responses, surely?

[cmaauk]

These questions should be able to be answered with simple responses, surely?

Having spoken to John Higo direct i'll answer for you Rob.

Answer 1: Yes.

Answer 2: None, just do the course.

[boxingbrit]

I think people should stop being negative and just be greatful there are people willing to put in the effort to put this together. Constructive criticism will move us forward...

[Rob T]

It's not being negative, it is indeed constructive criticism.

I think that being able to teach MMA (which means UFC etc style fights in a ring or cage, not a mix of traditional martial arts) requires far more than a dan grade in any TMA. In fact, I don't think a dan grade in a TMA is in anyway necessary and is a silly prerequisite to have. Also, to not require any grappling credentials before qualifiying someone to teach MMA is just ridiculous. (Assuming what cmaauk has said is true).

[cmaauk]

It's not being negative, it is indeed constructive criticism.

I think that being able to teach MMA (which means UFC etc style fights in a ring or cage, not a mix of traditional martial arts) requires far more than a dan grade in any TMA. In fact, I don't think a dan grade in a TMA is in anyway necessary and is a silly prerequisite to have. Also, to not require any grappling credentials before qualifiying someone to teach MMA is just ridiculous. (Assuming what cmaauk has said is true).

Rob, it's not MMA as we all know it - it's WAKOs own version as per my previous post.

[Rob T]

I think that's pretty dishonest then. They will argue about it I'm sure but it's pretty clear what MMA means.

[cmaauk]

However you look at if you ask John he will tell you himself.

MMA is what it is and if we alter it any any way it ceases to be MMA at all. The following is a quote from a press release i made to the C.M.A.A. after one of our members told me he had been offered insurnce for MMA. I investigated and these were my findings:

........In January 2010 one of our members contacted us saying that he had been informed that another well known and very large Martial Arts group were stating that their membership now included insurance for sparring / competting in MMA.

We contacted this group direct and after a long telephone conversation found that this is not the case as they had developed their own version of MMA! They had written their own set of rules which included no strikes to the head or back when on the gound and the use of more protective equipment.

This is NOT MMA as most know and practice it. Instead this is Sport Ju-Jitsu, or Knock Down Budo as it is also known, which has always been covered.

[Mad Dog]

Our criteria can be seen for both coach and grades, for those who wish it, here www.mmacoach.co.uk

Constructive criticism accepted with pleasure ladies and gents, everyone may not agree of course but after many discussions it seemed the fairest way for us, again its there if needed and if not then fine - what we won't be doing however is advertising it in the media etc.

Regards to all

Andy. ;-)

Interesting but why follow the traditional method? Are any of these fighters ever likely to wear a coloured belt? what about all those beginners who havent fought yet? how about a simpler system..

Beginner - Just started
Intermediate - got the basics starting to get the knowledge
Advanced - very good working towards first real fight
Fighter - had first fight
Advanced fighter - had 10 fights more than 50% wins
Semi pro fighter - good enough for small purse
Pro Fighter - what it says on the tin

and an MMA coach is an MMA coach, some will have been fighters some wont, some will have BB some wont, its all down to their ability to get the best out of their fighters, and good fighters will find the good coaches.

[cmaauk]

Agreed Fighters will 'vote with their feet'.

As for the grade structure yes none will wear belts or even anything to show grade, but as i said in my earlier posts this was the fairest way we came up with after many conversations with MMA clubs within the C.M.A.A.

In our opionion a person must fight to grade, however your suggested method is also viable and should a group decide to use it then it would be their way just as ours is ours and would no doubt be very much welcomed by those who use it.

Thanks for your input :)

[Romeoblood]

IMO this whole thing with a governing body is needed

however it should under no circumstances be a group who want to change the rules of our sport

in my opinion you should not need a balck belt to be a coach, you should however need to display your abilities as a coach

the idea of a sylabus for coaching is a daft one as well, were not learning french here, were learning how to fight, its not "do this do that" kinda sport, we need to be adapting to be able to handle different styles of opponents, and we need to be constantly learning, its not a case of if you know x,y,z you can fight mma

with all due respect to wako... still to kickboxing where you belong!

[johnchigo]

Anyway the debate, goes on, wako are are putting shows and courses on and it works, we wear 6 ounce gloves and do 3x3minrds and provide astepping stone tournament for people looking to put their toes in the water, also if anyone from 45yrs to 55yrs fancy a fight under wako rules l personally am looking for one before the end of the year, l am in my 50's weight 66kg, its so much fun l just want one last one.Any takers. :)

[Jay Evans]

Anyway the debate, goes on, wako are are putting shows and courses on and it works, we wear 6 ounce gloves and do 3x3minrds and provide astepping stone tournament for people looking to put their toes in the water, also if anyone from 45yrs to 55yrs fancy a fight under wako rules l personally am looking for one before the end of the year, l am in my 50's weight 66kg, its so much fun l just want one last one.Any takers. :)

Randy Higo :D will be there for that one!

[BrummyAnimal]

Nice one boss!!!!!...true warrior!

Chris

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[Drill Sergeant]

Do you think that anyone should be able to teach MMA? Or would you prefer to learn from anybody?

All we are doing is setting a standard within "WAKO" to meet insurance requirements.

Its not compulsory to be a wako member to fight or teach, if you are happy to go with another instructor, then fine, do that.

Bold Points
1) I have a monkey thats got great ground game, really slippery character. You could learn from him.
2) I am suprised it took so long to say that TBH


True enough.The reason I ask is that expereince of training with John would be a good basis for judging his ability to coach. Be it Kickboxing, MMA, whatever. Best of luck with your training.

See Below...


no-one has questioned him at all?


Really??? See Above...


After getting through 7/8 pages of gripe, gripe, pop at WAKO, more gripes I got bored.

Surely a big reputable firm like WAKO getting involved in the UKMMA scene is a good thing.

Asking for a Dan grade or relevant experience ensures that the Monkey I have (as mentioned above) couldnt be a MMA coach.

The idea seems good to me even if slightly rough around the edges, and you are never going to be able to please everybody.

If you are not happy about the idea, dont take advantage of it. But unless you have hard proof that it is a fail - dont knock it either.

Just my view on the matter.

[Rob T]

So what level of grappling experience is necessary for being a WAKO certified MMA instructor?

[Mad Dog]

Anyway the debate, goes on, wako are are putting shows and courses on and it works, we wear 6 ounce gloves and do 3x3minrds and provide astepping stone tournament for people looking to put their toes in the water, also if anyone from 45yrs to 55yrs fancy a fight under wako rules l personally am looking for one before the end of the year, l am in my 50's weight 66kg, its so much fun l just want one last one.Any takers. :)

I would take you up on that but there is no way I can get my weight that low.. 75kg at best.. cant you eat something heavy? ;)

[Tri Stlye MMA]

I am not really old enough to remember, but didnt people have these same discusions about Karate and Kung Fu back in the day when they started up over here?

[ringside gym]

What you have just stated is indeed to to some extent correct. The reason why so many Kickboxing bodies exist..is simply not one can control the whole sector in the correct way...so new bodies open to furnish the kickboxing world with new rules and better regulations to try and improve conditions and safety for fights and officials..

[Romeoblood]

I'm by no means a leading player in this debate at all, but he's my opinion

asking for an instructor to have a dan grade in a martial art before taking your courses is ridiculous

look at the following examples

Gym A - Boxing and Wrestling
coached by an ex pro Boxer who won a world title, and a former commonwealth gold medalist wrestler
home to various levels of fighters including high level pros who have fought all over the world
the pros help develop up and coming fighters

[U]Gym B - Thai and BJJ
coached by an ex MT fighter who has won domestic titles and a BJJ Brown belt
home to a couple of up and coming pro fighters and a pile of decent amateur/semi pro/class guys
this gym develops young fighters, who in the future will be professionals making an impact on the UK scene

Gym C - WAKO Certified
coached by a Karate 2nd Dan who has no grappling experience, but has taken the WAKO course
taking money out of the pockets of other gyms
teaching young guys that they can fight, only to see them slaughtered when they enter the cage with no grappling experience

People often disagree with my opinions, but I'm pretty sure that anyone with half a brain will draw the same conclusion as i did... you don't need a dan grade to teach MMA