Squat lag.

[Wiegieboard]

Anyone elses squat ever lagged a shit tonne behind their deadlift?

I deadlift using quite a bit of legs in the movement though not as much as an Oly lifter. My squat still just doesn't compare in any way though. It's about 75kg behind my deadlift.

If anyone has had this problem and come out the other end smiling, any chance you could gimme some insight into how you achieved a better balance between the two lifts?

Cheers,
Neill

[taffdragon]

Anyone elses squat ever lagged a shit tonne behind their deadlift?

I deadlift using quite a bit of legs in the movement though not as much as an Oly lifter. My squat still just doesn't compare in any way though. It's about 75kg behind my deadlift.

If anyone has had this problem and come out the other end smiling, any chance you could gimme some insight into how you achieved a better balance between the two lifts?

Cheers,
Neill



some people just cant squat. could be a mechanical disadvantage, or the other muscles other than the quads are weak. like inner thighs, lower back, hams etc.

or you could be squating normal weight but be a awsome deadlifter :cool:

[Wiegieboard]

Thanks for the reply.

My deadlift, bench and row gains are consistently increasing by about the same amount every week which is great.The squat is different though, I guess I'm just a weak squatter. I know that everyone has a weak lift but at my powerlifting centre, I always seem to be the one struggling to squat weights that guys in lower classes are doing. My bench on the other hand (The gay exercise) seems to go up regardless of the rep. range. I don't even seem to hit any plateaus with it.
What makes it frustrating is that my training partner is an unequipped record holder in the squat and we're both running out of ideas to try and spurn my squat on.

What I guess I'm asking is whether anyone who has had a similar problem in the past has done anything specific that has fired them past their problems in squatting?

Things like training only squat for a while?
Or have they used any support exercises which fixed the problem?
How many sets at how many reps do they use in each phase of their cycle etc?

[Dave78]

Thanks for the reply.

My deadlift, bench and row gains are consistently increasing by about the same amount every week which is great.......My bench on the other hand (The gay exercise) seems to go up regardless of the rep. range. I don't even seem to hit any plateaus with it.


haha Weigie this doesn't sound like a bad problem to have to be honest mate!

I have the opposite problem, my deadlift is borderline embarrassing but i have squatted up to double body weight. I tend to go lighter now and encorporate jumping squats and lunges etc. to try and vary it up. I find my body doesn't thank me for going heavy and the results weren't worth it tbh.

Are you comparing your squat to that of your (obviously freakishly strong) partner? Is it much over bodyweight?

[facetofootstyle]

I have the exact same problem bro, very happy with my deadlift (double bodyweight), but squat is beyond embarrising, my mrs can squat more than me only hitting bout 75kg myself and that with the nastiest porn face ever.

I no my tech is spot on aswell as my depth when squatting but i recon i just have sparrow legs man

i'm aim for 100kg squat 5x5, just going to keep aiming for it maybe il hit it in a couple of years hahahahah

[Wiegieboard]

Hey dudes.

I'm not comparing directly to my training partner. He's very talented in the squat and our body mechanics differ considerably.I'm comparing my squat to my other lifts.



I've always had an idea that I'd like my squat to lag not too far behind my deadlift with the two being as equal as possible. I believe that the two lifts should be relatively close to each other due to the fact that I deadlift with a hip depth between an Olympic Lifting depth and a powerlifting depth where you start with the hips slightly higher. I try to use a lot of legs in my deadlift as I intend on replicating the movement quite accurately in sport.

I guess that maybe I do have sparrow legs myself. I've always had long and thin legs.
I just don't want to give in and accept that I won't perform as I wish to perform when everything else is going peachy, after all, in powerlifting it's about the 3 lifts combined as opposed to one specific lift.

I guess I'll just keep on plugging away, trying different methods and eating plenty. My next step is actually trying high reps after my 4s and 2s because I progressed most successfully strengthwise on 8s of all things.

[MikeyL]

What accessory work are you doing mate?

Do you lift from pins?

Do you have problems out of the hole? Chest caving inwards? Knees giving in?

[1inchPonch]

I had the same problem for about the last year with my squat being about half what my deadlift was. Over the last couple of months i've pretty much ignored my deadlift and just focused on doing lots of squats with progressive loading (only adding 2.5kg each time). Doing this i've managed to now get my squat up to within 10kg of my deads. I'm pretty happy with my squat now as it's gone up by 50%.

I know that you know your stuff when it comes to lifting Wiegie, so i'm not even going to attempt to teach my granny to suck eggs but I found that when I hit a plateau I would do a couple days half squats (not exactly half but not full deep squats). Then, when I was happy I could manage it i'd do that weight full squats then up the weight again the next time.

It's also worth saying that i'm tall and skinny with the worst chicken legs ever so i'm not exactly built for lifting.

[Sam Wiltshire]

Anyone elses squat ever lagged a shit tonne behind their deadlift?

I deadlift using quite a bit of legs in the movement though not as much as an Oly lifter. My squat still just doesn't compare in any way though. It's about 75kg behind my deadlift.

If anyone has had this problem and come out the other end smiling, any chance you could gimme some insight into how you achieved a better balance between the two lifts?

Cheers,
Neill
Have you tryed a Squat Mechine ? instead of Free-Squat? Are you feet evenly spread and sholder width apart? are your feet pointing forward when doing this workout ? have your tryed putting a box to the correct hight of the squat so when your at the correct hight your bum will hit it ?

I squad around 85kg Atm , and this is my first 4 months in the gym. My Condision coach suggested i find a mirrior in the gym to watch myself and it worked a treat for me and now im okay and confident to squat.

So all in all-
Are you setup correctly? Feet , back , grip?
Try a mirrior & a box :)

Hope this help's you to some exstent

**after reading some of the oter posts it seems ive just posted aload of shit , but i maybe wrong**

[Wiegieboard]

My technique has been worked on through coaching and I'm on my way up.

I've now brought my feet farther past shoulder width and point my toes out more than before. I had a technical fault where my balance was off because my stance was only a little past shoulder width and my toes pointed too close to forward as was mentioned.
I also took some rest time when I was ill there and came back fresher. I think that a combination of things just made me a little stale. All's well now.

Thanks for the help to the folk who pmd me. I'll be doing 2.5x bw soon enough haha :) Just gotta put in some hard work, hard eating, hard resting and regularity.

P.S. I don't train with a mirror whilst squatting as the only thing I believe I should be looking at is the ceiling. It was a setup problem right enough though.

[Sam Wiltshire]

My technique has been worked on through coaching and I'm on my way up.

I've now brought my feet farther past shoulder width and point my toes out more than before. I had a technical fault where my balance was off because my stance was only a little past shoulder width and my toes pointed too close to forward as was mentioned.
I also took some rest time when I was ill there and came back fresher. I think that a combination of things just made me a little stale. All's well now.

Thanks for the help to the folk who pmd me. I'll be doing 2.5x bw soon enough haha :) Just gotta put in some hard work, hard eating, hard resting and regularity.

P.S. I don't train with a mirror whilst squatting as the only thing I believe I should be looking at is the ceiling. It was a setup problem right enough though.


Great new's but to have a effective squat you need your toes and feet straight foward rather than at a angel because it may cause one leg to have more musel strain and more chance of pulling the leg thats at the more correct prosistion.

If you want a diagram of what i mean then feel free

May i just send you to this website - http://stronglifts.com/how-not-to-squat-the-2nd-biggest-mistake-you-must-avoid/
I belive if you do everything that it says not to then you should be better :)

And everyone is open to mirriors or not , but i personaly think its better for myself anyhow . as i can see where i am going wrong more easyly.

[DanCrase]

I have a squat lag too, I deadlift about 140kg for 5 reps, but I squat about 85kg. Thats a big lag.

[Wiegieboard]

Great new's but to have a effective squat you need your toes and feet straight foward rather than at a angel because it may cause one leg to have more musel strain and more chance of pulling the leg thats at the more correct prosistion.





I would have to disagree with this.If squatting with the toes pointing forward, it is impossible to achieve legal depth even when resting on your hunkers which is something that you shouldn't do whilst squatting. Keeping the toes forward unless your legs are completely together (which is highly unusual) actually creates strain on the hips, knees and ankles as this is not the correct physiological alignment of these joints.
Also, if you're not looking up and are looking forward at a mirror, your back posture is incorrect causing a tendency to pitch forward when you lift due to a disruption of your correct lifting line and decreases the load you are capable of moving. This also means that you risk serious injury with a bar falling on your neck after rounding your spine to a dangerous point. You also don't have a mirror in competition and if you aren't used to feeling the squat, instead opting to look at yourself, your squat wont be consistent with what you've been doing in training which is essential when in competition with maximum load.


Also, I'm glad I wasn't the only one who had a lag. Dancrase, that difference is crazy man! Do you dead with pretty straight legs?
Because I fixed the problem, my lifts are now only 20 or so kilos apart. I imagine that they will become closer over the next few weeks again.

Cheers dudes.

[DanCrase]

Also, I'm glad I wasn't the only one who had a lag. Dancrase, that difference is crazy man! Do you dead with pretty straight legs?
Because I fixed the problem, my lifts are now only 20 or so kilos apart. I imagine that they will become closer over the next few weeks again.

Cheers dudes.

Yeah, my deadlifts are more Romanian Deadlifts really; I only bend my knees about 45 degrees

[Sam Wiltshire]

I would have to disagree with this.If squatting with the toes pointing forward, it is impossible to achieve legal depth even when resting on your hunkers which is something that you shouldn't do whilst squatting. Keeping the toes forward unless your legs are completely together (which is highly unusual) actually creates strain on the hips, knees and ankles as this is not the correct physiological alignment of these joints.
Also, if you're not looking up and are looking forward at a mirror, your back posture is incorrect causing a tendency to pitch forward when you lift due to a disruption of your correct lifting line and decreases the load you are capable of moving. This also means that you risk serious injury with a bar falling on your neck after rounding your spine to a dangerous point. You also don't have a mirror in competition and if you aren't used to feeling the squat, instead opting to look at yourself, your squat wont be consistent with what you've been doing in training which is essential when in competition with maximum load.


Also, I'm glad I wasn't the only one who had a lag. Dancrase, that difference is crazy man! Do you dead with pretty straight legs?
Because I fixed the problem, my lifts are now only 20 or so kilos apart. I imagine that they will become closer over the next few weeks again.

Cheers dudes.

Hmm well my gym coach at the uni , tell me to do it like that :S

[Wiegieboard]

He sounds like he may potentially be YMCA qualified if he teaches those points?
I remember them teaching all kinds of stuff like that back in 2001 and 2002.

[judostu]

When I was actually lifting consistently a few years a go my deadlift was 180kg for 5 reps and I struggled squating 100kgs for one. Think the fact I love deadlifting but hate squating contributed to this huge difference. Have you tried staring your squat from the bottom position if you are using a rack. I tried this for a short while but gave up as it was disgusting!

[1inchPonch]

Great new's but to have a effective squat you need your toes and feet straight foward rather than at a angel because it may cause one leg to have more musel strain and more chance of pulling the leg thats at the more correct prosistion.

If you want a diagram of what i mean then feel free

May i just send you to this website - http://stronglifts.com/how-not-to-squat-the-2nd-biggest-mistake-you-must-avoid/
I belive if you do everything that it says not to then you should be better :)

And everyone is open to mirriors or not , but i personaly think its better for myself anyhow . as i can see where i am going wrong more easyly.

Yup, this contradicts everything i've ever been told about squating.

[Wiegieboard]

When I was actually lifting consistently a few years a go my deadlift was 180kg for 5 reps and I struggled squating 100kgs for one. Think the fact I love deadlifting but hate squating contributed to this huge difference. Have you tried staring your squat from the bottom position if you are using a rack. I tried this for a short while but gave up as it was disgusting!

Holy crap that sounds horrible! It must be hella hard to balance doing that. I've done box squatting before but never started from the bottom.

Was this for near max singles or what?

[judostu]

Tried it much less than max because as I said it makes it much more difficult starting from the hardest part of the lift stationary.
Got the idea from a book called dinosaur training by Brooks Kubik. The book is brilliant and emphasises on hard work ethic whilst training and talks alot about using thick handled dumbells and bars, sandbag/barrel lifting, grip training and old school lifts bent press etc. Well worth the read!

[Atlasmma]

I can leg press no problem, but I can't squat for shit.

[Wiegieboard]

Dinosaur training was bloody awesome! I used to do a lot of the sandbag stuff from it and axle stuff too.

[sjharvey]

Thanks for the reply.

My deadlift, bench and row gains are consistently increasing by about the same amount every week which is great.The squat is different though, I guess I'm just a weak squatter. I know that everyone has a weak lift but at my powerlifting centre, I always seem to be the one struggling to squat weights that guys in lower classes are doing. My bench on the other hand (The gay exercise) seems to go up regardless of the rep. range. I don't even seem to hit any plateaus with it.
What makes it frustrating is that my training partner is an unequipped record holder in the squat and we're both running out of ideas to try and spurn my squat on.

What I guess I'm asking is whether anyone who has had a similar problem in the past has done anything specific that has fired them past their problems in squatting?

Things like training only squat for a while?
Or have they used any support exercises which fixed the problem?
How many sets at how many reps do they use in each phase of their cycle etc? Only thing i can think of is maybe for a while just maintain your strength on the deadlift so that your body is fresher for the squat. Or try partial reps with a heavier weight and work on increasing the depth every week. I think the squat is supposed to be behind the deadlift anyway.

[Wiegieboard]

Only thing i can think of is maybe for a while just maintain your strength on the deadlift so that your body is fresher for the squat. Or try partial reps with a heavier weight and work on increasing the depth every week. I think the squat is supposed to be behind the deadlift anyway.

I go literally ass to ankles but one thing that is helping these days is velocity. I'm doing something new:

3x5 (I gain strength faster on high reps eg. 4 to 8 reps) concentrating on velocity

then

3x3@50%1rm doing maximum velocity.

I'd advise anyone to try this as my jump hight and lift speed has increased considerably.

[simonmobiledisco]

the strong lifts site should bookmarket for anyone interested in getting strong. Also www.ironaddicts.com is a great strength training forum. The only allowed verified members to give advise so unless you cab bench 300/squat/400/ dead lift 500 (lbs) or similar you just ask questions, which means the quality of information is proven.

Following info off that site my squat went from 80kg to 140 for reps (i was about 77KG at the time) sadly multiple back injury and surrytime outdoor cravings have lead me to stop training anything heavy. I also got my bench to over 100KG (1rm) for the first time ever when it han't gone up in over 6 months.

[Wiegieboard]

the strong lifts site should bookmarket for anyone interested in getting strong. Also www.ironaddicts.com is a great strength training forum. The only allowed verified members to give advise so unless you cab bench 300/squat/400/ dead lift 500 (lbs) or similar you just ask questions, which means the quality of information is proven.

Following info off that site my squat went from 80kg to 140 for reps (i was about 77KG at the time) sadly multiple back injury and surrytime outdoor cravings have lead me to stop training anything heavy. I also got my bench to over 100KG (1rm) for the first time ever when it han't gone up in over 6 months.

Thats a pretty decent squat for reps at that bodyweight.
What was your time frame of improvement and was that from a complete biginner level?

My squat has improved from when I last posted. It's been slow but consistant. I'm now on a de-loading phase and look to be starting a Russian Squat Routine after the de-load phase is complete. My deadlifts have really shot up over the last month, so in the next phase I'm going to be concentrating very hard on squats.

I'll give that site a check out.
Thanks
Neill

[colonel]

it sounds to me like your knees are to weak relatively, to squat & your back & hip complex have become dominant form all the deadlifting.
You may need to do some direct work on the VMO to get your knees functioning better. Might want look @ hamstring balance as well
Do more single leg stuff & dont worry about the back squat to much, front squats have much more carry over to MMA & you cant cheat & use your back or you just end up dropping the bar on your thighs.

[Wiegieboard]

It's true I do have very delicate knees for a guy. My joints and bone structure are particularly ectomorphic.
I've been addressing the hamstrings for a few weeks now and it has helped.
I used fronties as a support exercise before but only for 2 sets post squatting.

I'll give 4 weeks of fronties a go after my de-load has finished.
I'm slowly building my plan lol.

[colonel]

Building up your front squat can have direct carry over to your back squat, doesn't work the other way round though.
Personally i dropped back squats completely from my training although I may do single leg back squats sometimes. I'm sure Ill reintroduce it @ some point for varieties sake though

[Wiegieboard]

Front squatting actually helped my back squat technique. I'm the mechanical variety of person who has to focus on leaning back more whilst squatting and push my shoulders back into the bar. Going heavy on fronties will without doubt address this.
Why did you stop squatting? Do you have knee or hip problems?

[SWM]

Sorry to bump the thread.

I'm struggling with my squat atm. I'm doing a slightly bastardised 5-3-1 and have seen really good gains in all my lifts apart from my squat. Its taken me a month or so just to be able to hit parallel. @Weige were you always flexible enough to go AoG or did you work on it? If so how?

Also I get sore in the lumbar region after a session of squats. Is this normal?

Simon

[BlueRabbit]

Sorry to bump the thread.

I'm struggling with my squat atm. I'm doing a slightly bastardised 5-3-1 and have seen really good gains in all my lifts apart from my squat. Its taken me a month or so just to be able to hit parallel. @Weige were you always flexible enough to go AoG or did you work on it? If so how?

Also I get sore in the lumbar region after a session of squats. Is this normal?

Simon

Stretch those hamstrings. They attach to the bottom of the pelvis. If they are too tight they pull on the pelvis when you descend, meaning that your back gets rounded.

[SWM]

Stretch those hamstrings. They attach to the bottom of the pelvis. If they are too tight they pull on the pelvis when you descend, meaning that your back gets rounded.

Cheers mate. I'm quite flexible in the hamstrings, but i'll stretch them more.

[simonmobiledisco]

Things to try

For Squats, learning to use your glutes and hams more makes a massive difference.

Glute ham raises. I don't have access to a machine so do it DIY with my knees on a bosu ball andfeet against a steel lined wall and rely on the grip from my shoes (not ideal). My hammies were killing me after doing this for the first time

Box Squating is also good for utilising the glutes and good for technique

(I too use a wider that shoulder stance with toes out) I also have terrible knees and squat deep so if my technique is bad my knees get a kicking.

I'm squating medium weight at low reps once every 2 weeks at the moment because of my back . I am not going to go very heavy on my squat and dead lift for 2010 and try and get my back sorted. So i'm going to look a lot more into dynamic effort work

[Wiegieboard]

Sorry to bump the thread.

I'm struggling with my squat atm. I'm doing a slightly bastardised 5-3-1 and have seen really good gains in all my lifts apart from my squat. Its taken me a month or so just to be able to hit parallel. @Weige were you always flexible enough to go AoG or did you work on it? If so how?

Also I get sore in the lumbar region after a session of squats. Is this normal?

Simon

I had to work at it for the first month or two to hit ass to grass without feeling strain on my sacrum and lower back.
Stretch your Glutes, hamstrings, adductors, quads and soleus muscles after your session whilst your muscles are still warm and elastic. Also do light foam rolling on your lower back between sets using a peanut (2 tennis balls taped together) to do so. This helped me a lot.

If you cant keep your heels on the floor (common problem with swimmers) you need to stretch your calfs and soleus more. If your hips tend to turn under at the bottom of the squat and your lower back rounds (also feeling strain on your sacrum sometimes as you mentioned), stretch your hamstrings, adductors and Glutes more.
Contrary to what some believe, hold your stretch for about 3 minutes and concentrate on relaxing both the muscle group you're stretching and the opposing muscle groups eg. if you're stretching hams, concentrate on relaxing your quads also whilst doing it.

If you need any more info on how to accustom your body to the squat, don't hesitate to send me a PM and I'll help you with any queries/problems you have.

Good luck man, you're on the path to glory

P.S. My squat is my weakest lift but with correct training and time, I'm getting there, so you can also.

[SWM]

Cheers mate. I'll work on that for a bit. If i'm still having problems i'll pm ya.