Wrestling or Jiu Jitsu

[OHarra]

Is it more important to be good at wrestling or Jiu Jitsu?

If someone was starting out with no skill set at all, what would you suggest they focus on first and why?

Please discuss.

[Wiegieboard]

Totaly didnt see the forum name....doh

[Jamie Taylor]

Wrestling.

[ross90]

Wrestling.

Really..? I would have thought Jiu Jitsu, but wrestling like once a week, along side Jiu Jitsu, because it teaches a lot that JJ can't. But definately the main one JJ. Just my opinion though.

[Jamie Taylor]

If you wanted to eventually fight pro rules mma ( which im pretty sure thats what OHarra meant ) then IMO starting wrestling first would be more beneficial. Not only will it build more strength and cardio due to the nature of the sport rather than the slower paced BJJ but will give you a good base and a good idea of the general positions you'd end up in during an mma fight. GnP will come naturally as well as you're constantly putting people on their backs.

People who have excelled in wrestling tend to catch on to BJJ quickly, it doesnt work the other way round though from what I have experienced. Again just my opinion but I wish I had started wrestling sooner.

[ross90]

good post, and since its "ask the fighter" lol, your better to snawer than me. Where in middlesborugh can you do it though? Ive not looked, but is there many places?

[Jamie Taylor]

Stockton wrestling club mate it's awesome.

Splash in stockton Tues and Sun nights.

Abdul teaches good wrestling as well but he's not sure whats happening with his gym at the mo.

[ross90]

Ah right, i might check it out at some point then, started training at redcar bjj and im really enjoying it (only done 2 lessons mind) just ordered a gi to keep doing it properly, now i just need teesside muay thai to open up again :)

[Jamie Taylor]

Nice one. I wish I had more time to get there I want my bluebelt :(

Do me a favour say hi to Jimbob for me, then armbar the fuck out of him !

[ross90]

LMAO! We were in that roid head gym on monday, tiny little cupboard of a room and there was loads of people, and then last night in redcar boxing gym (memorial hall) and there was 8 people haha! sods law i suppose, can you not get enough time to get down? not sure which one jimbob is lol...when i find out i will try though.

[Jamie Taylor]

No mate I work 2-10 on the nights it's on. :(

Can't miss Jim-Bob he's the ugly cunt with the beautiful long blonde locks.

He posts on here as jimbob kelly I think.

[ross90]

Ah man thats a harsh shift anyway without you having to miss out on something you'd much rather be doing :(

Haha! seriously? does he look like techno viking? I'll keep an eye out, though to be fair if hes been going a while it will be him giving me the armbar lol.

[Grizzly.]

Wrestling, I did wrestling for 6 months before I started doing JuJitsu, I now do both 4 days a week. You'll enjoy whichever you start with.

[Jim_Williams]

You aint Cage warriors most controversial member at all.

[Grizzly.]

^ How easy was that, congratulations you were the first one to notice.

[Jim_Williams]

You aren't controversial, I was just pointing that out.

You didnt wind me up in anyway, I was just saying.

[Grizzly.]

I'm not winding you up, I was just seeing how long before anybody noticed it was there... about 48 posts.

[the jabroni]

try and tap some of the experienced wrestlers out at club with jiu jitsu, not that they know any submission but you'll get the shock of you life............i did some with young marcus recently and he nearly had me the little shit! was round my back choking me, i just escaped!
Jiu Jitsu teaches you how to submit, the method on how to pass the guard - but its the wrestling that gives you the positioning and the ability to apply the techniques.

[ross90]

Haha! The post caused controversy in itself. which was amusing, but yeah i noticed and never bit ;)

[CraigSt.Clair]

yeah i noticed and never bit

Same here lol

[mcgovern]

WRESTLING without a doubt, generally at the moment it is better structured with regards to teaching, safety and all the pc things you have to conform to.

In my experience people who have started off with ju jitsu and then trained Wrestling have commented that they wish they started wrestling first.

Wrestling mentality is imo more domineering and makes you more of an agreesive grappler i.e. when scrambling, people who have wrestled generally do better.

Thats not me knocking ju jitsu, as it is a fantastic martial art, but starting off i believe wrestling to be the most beneficial

[mcgovern]

Ah right, i might check it out at some point then, started training at redcar bjj and im really enjoying it (only done 2 lessons mind) just ordered a gi to keep doing it properly, now i just need teesside muay thai to open up again :)

Ross whats redcar bjj like, as i am wanting to take up and i am looking for a decent place in the northeast, ideally middlesbrough area

[blanker]

i would say wrestling aswell. theres alot of crossover betwean wrestling and jiu jitsu so you will be basically just adding things like subs, guard passes and some sweeps to your wrestling once you start training bjj.
i dont think i have seen one bjj or nogi (and i have seen alot of them) that dosnt mention wrestling or fighting a wrestler.

getting a good knowlege of wrestling, means you will advance in your bjj lot quicker then someone who has never trained wrestling.

you also have to consider the relavents of the two sports. theres not a huge number of subs in mma anymore compared to the amount of time you will spend sprawling, shooting, defending singles, clinching pressed up against the cage, pinning or being pinned for gnp.

wrestling is a very explosive sport and this is why i think most of the former wrestler have heavy hands .

most poeple dont give wrestling the respect it deserves because unlike thaiboxing or boxing with there k.o's or bjj with its joint locks and chokes, thay unfairly underate it due to the lack of finnishing techniques.

[mcgovern]

6 minutes of wrestling, is worse than running a marathon

[boxingbrit]

6 minutes of wrestling, is worse than running a marathon

I wouldnt say that but wrestling pressure drills are certainly up there. I have run 2 marathons and the 5x5mins i did wrestling fresh partners for my CW Title fight with Manu Fernandez was as hard and certainly mentally tougher.

[mcgovern]

You can get into a ryhthm running long distances, just the aches and pains need the mental toughness to push through, but is barerable.

Competing in wrestling, mma, when you gas you need some wilpower to drive you on, i just pray they finish me so i can breath.

I find Ju Jitsu more passive.

[boxingbrit]

Yeah but the marathon i found very tough on the body and when you are not experienced it can be very hard to fight through the pain, cramping, blisters etc.

Wrestling pressure drills are tough mentally and physically but dont do as much damage, certainly 6 minutes but i get your point, wrestling for a much shorter amount of time is tougher. I.e i am comparing 25 mins (5x5mins) pressure drills with a 3 hr 20 minutes marathon.

[Allan Shrek]

BJJ.

Easily.

Wrestling systematically eliminates the non athletic and weak willed and naturally selects those best suited to MMA competition. It's almost Darwinian, and that's why former college wrestlers succeed in MMA more than any other athlete (note American wrestlers translate to MMA better than wrestlers from other nations, a legacy of the Gable style?).

BJJ teaches positions, techniques and strategies that are directly applicable to MMA. It doesn't get you athletic in the same way and it wont make you hard. It doesn't elminate weak and non athletic people, it turns them into dangerous fighters.

Zhoooo Zhitsuuuuuuuu!

BJJ teaches you valid skills for MMA.

[mcgovern]

Yeah but the marathon i found very tough on the body and when you are not experienced it can be very hard to fight through the pain, cramping, blisters etc.

Wrestling pressure drills are tough mentally and physically but dont do as much damage, certainly 6 minutes but i get your point, wrestling for a much shorter amount of time is tougher. I.e i am comparing 25 mins (5x5mins) pressure drills with a 3 hr 20 minutes marathon.

Definately feel the effects of running a marathon if not the same evening then definately the next couple of days, you feel about ninety years old.

Imagine doing 3hr 20 minutes of pressure drills:p I dare anyone!

[mcgovern]

BJJ.

Easily.

Wrestling systematically eliminates the non athletic and weak willed and naturally selects those best suited to MMA competition. It's almost Darwinian, and that's why former college wrestlers succeed in MMA more than any other athlete (note American wrestlers translate to MMA better than wrestlers from other nations, a legacy of the Gable style?).

BJJ teaches positions, techniques and strategies that are directly applicable to MMA. It doesn't get you athletic in the same way and it wont make you hard. It doesn't elminate weak and non athletic people, it turns them into dangerous fighters.

Zhoooo Zhitsuuuuuuuu!

BJJ teaches you valid skills for MMA.

totaly see where your coming from but the OP didnt ask which was the easiest physically.

Most young kids love wrestling, its in their DNA, look at gorrilas Rough housing, look at how young brothers interact with each other play fighting, they often end up wrestling, or doing a form of.

But on the other hand i have seen many people come to our wrestling class, which is friendly, welcoming for beginers type of club, who then cant hack it because its physically to hard for them, perhaps a little to rough.

So if starting out, at a latter age in life, then BJJ is perhaps better suited to ease people in.

Me personaly, I love the roughness of wrestling sparing, not because of any macho bull, but the competiton of physically trying to beat your opponent.

And because im a Geezer AND THATS HOW I ROLL:D

[Allan Shrek]

Is it more important to be good at wrestling or Jiu Jitsu?

If someone was starting out with no skill set at all, what would you suggest they focus on first and why?

Please discuss.

I'm assuming the OP was an adult or young adult asking for himself in order to get a start in MMA.

Maybe the wrong assumption but if you think BJJ isn't physical maybe you should watch some Jacare fights.

[boxingbrit]

If you dont have decent wrestling your BJJ becomes useless surely?

[mcgovern]

I'm assuming the OP was an adult or young adult asking for himself in order to get a start in MMA.

Maybe the wrong assumption but if you think BJJ isn't physical maybe you should watch some Jacare fights.

dont get me wrong bjj is physically demanding, without a doubt.

IMO just not as much as Wrestling, its hard to be passive in wrestling.

[Allan Shrek]

You can still pull guard.

More and more elite level BJJ guys crossing over to MMA are willing to play off their backs to start with and look for a quick sweep, especially when faced with good wrestlers.

Great example of BJJ vs Wrestling in the modern day, Bibiano Fernandes Vs Joe Warren from DREAM 11.

[mcgovern]

If you dont have decent wrestling your BJJ becomes useless surely?

look at koshcheck, his experience before MMA was to hit the bag and then compete, his wrestling was so dominant that it carried him through his early fights.

Look at lindland years ago not the most entertaining fighter but totaly dominat, down to wrestling.

definately agree if you have good BJJ but poor wrestling its not gonna carry through

[Allan Shrek]

Look at Jacare, Bibiano Fernandes, Shaolin, Demain Maia, etc.

[mcgovern]

Look at Jacare, Bibiano Fernandes, Shaolin, Demain Maia, etc.

yeh, they all incorperate wrestling into their training.

where talking about joe bloggs who decides to do wrestling or BJJ.

Most bjj classes, 95% of the time start on their knees and then roll, stand them up and they are like ducks out of water, obviously not all clubs are like that, but you know what i mean.

[briant_gumble]

Personally I think wrestling is probably a better base in general but not for everyone. To look at shinya aoki and getting off topic anderson silva then I don't think it would have suited their natural physical attributes to make wrestling the core of their training.

[The Natural]

Look at Jacare, Bibiano Fernandes, Shaolin, Demain Maia, etc.

Jacre for one has very good wrestling..

He was relentless in the takedown in dream and u only have to watch his nogi super fight with Drysdale to see that he has good wrestling..

Mia is striaght up bjj which is fair enough and he does a good job.

Im sure shaolin had a fair amount of wrestling training with Darryl Gonar (is that eve his name :))..yada..yada..yada..:D

anyway..this thread has caused abit of a stir...

My honest opinion..i would pick wrestling first tho i love the ground game..It teaches so much about dominant position, relentlessness, mental toghness, cardio, conditioning, weight management..etc..

but the bjj ground game is poetic..

Aggghhh fuck it..i've changed my mind..get good at both..train them equally..add in striking..become a 'complete' fighter..:cool:

[Jay]

If you dont have decent wrestling your BJJ becomes useless surely?

I wouldn't say so....

It always brings me back to a story when I'd first started training, probably about 6months of BJJ and no wrestling, and I was submission grappling with an American guy who was a wrestler.

When we were wrestling, he'd take me down relentlessly, we'd get back up and the same would happen again. When we incorporated submissions he kept taking me down, getting submitted with armbars and triangles and then doing the same again.

I had no wrestling, he had no BJJ and to that end I was "winning" in submission grappling, despite him getting the takedowns.

Obviously with any sort of sub defense it would have been different, but in terms of pure style vs. style BJJ was very effective in this scenario.

Both have their merits and ideally you'd train both, but the one-sided nature in favour of wrestling surprises me here!

[widge milward]

Id get a good base in wrestling first

[Bluce068]

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[OHarra]

Kevin Jackson vs. Frank Shamrock
Kevin Jackson vs. Jerry Bowlander

Pure wrestler vs. Submission Fighters (ok not BJJ but definately Jiu Jitsu influenced).

Kevin was much stronger and athletic but had no appreciation of submissions as was a pure wrestler. Frank and Jerry were no where near as good at wrestling but knew submissions.

Kevin caught by the same arm bar twice.

So I guess you need to at least appreciate what submission is all about or you are going to get caught.

[mcgovern]

I wouldn't say so....

It always brings me back to a story when I'd first started training, probably about 6months of BJJ and no wrestling, and I was submission grappling with an American guy who was a wrestler.

When we were wrestling, he'd take me down relentlessly, we'd get back up and the same would happen again. When we incorporated submissions he kept taking me down, getting submitted with armbars and triangles and then doing the same again.

I had no wrestling, he had no BJJ and to that end I was "winning" in submission grappling, despite him getting the takedowns.

Obviously with any sort of sub defense it would have been different, but in terms of pure style vs. style BJJ was very effective in this scenario.

Both have their merits and ideally you'd train both, but the one-sided nature in favour of wrestling surprises me here!

i would agree with what you are saying, but the OP asked which would you concentrate on first, Wrestling Imo provides excellent foundations, then BJJ to complete your grappling game, addd in thai and boxing and your sorted.

Frank shamrock is a shootfighter

[mcgovern]

Kevin Jackson vs. Frank Shamrock
Kevin Jackson vs. Jerry Bowlander

Pure wrestler vs. Submission Fighters (ok not BJJ but definately Jiu Jitsu influenced).

Kevin was much stronger and athletic but had no appreciation of submissions as was a pure wrestler. Frank and Jerry were no where near as good at wrestling but knew submissions.

Kevin caught by the same arm bar twice.

So I guess you need to at least appreciate what submission is all about or you are going to get caught.

kevin jacksons fight record

Date Outcome Opponent Event Details Round, Time Notes
5/15/1998 Won Sam Adkins EC 18 - Extreme Challenge 18 Submission (Arm Bar) Round 1, 4:21
3/13/1998 Loss Jerry Bohlander UFC 16 - Battle in the Bayou Technical Submission (Armbar) Round 1, 10:23
12/21/1997 Loss Frank Shamrock UFC Japan - Ultimate Japan Submission (Armbar) Round 1, 0:16 For UFC Middleweight (205) Title
7/27/1997 Won Tony Fryklund UFC 14 - Showdown Submission (Choke) Round 1, 0:44 Won UFC 14 Middleweight Tournament
7/27/1997 Won Todd Butler UFC 14 - Showdown Submission (Strikes) Round 1, 1:27
3/28/1997 Won John Lober EF 4 - Extreme Fighting 4 Submission Round 2, 1:12


he was tapping people a year before he fought shamrock and bohlander, but they where more evolved fighters, more mma

[the jabroni]

Just on the subject of Jacare, i watched a video of him recently rolling:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soSDAtB1nSE

has very crisp wrestling ability that simply isn't really taught in pure BJJ, in my opinion - you can see other guy has literally no wrestling ability whatsoever, he is pure BJJ.

There is something else wrestling teaches you on the floor; the "fight" against being pinned, the movement and transition to positions, the balance and base to maintain positions and of course the pin.

[mcgovern]

cool vid, reminds me of me and you rolling rich, appart from you scream more

[the jabroni]

yeah when you pop my ankles from passing guard! ????!??!?

[mcgovern]

yeah when you pop my ankles from passing guard! ????!??!?

i had been drilling that, it shit me up big time, you screamed like a girl:D

[the jabroni]

The ankel crack guard pass, another painful dislocation.............no wonder i don't want to wrestle ya eh!
Everytime i goto wrestle you or Chris i'm playing with probabilites that are far from in my favour in terms of injuries!.......even though i can slam your monkey ass's through the mat with ease! ;)

[mcgovern]

dont cross the line_________

[the jabroni]

Hahahahahah

[wrestlewar]

when your eye gets better Rich i'll be waiting for you to try to slam my monkey ass!

hehehehe

[mcgovern]

when your eye gets better Rich i'll be waiting for you to try to slam my monkey ass!

hehehehe

Chris, do you realise how gay that statement sounds

[wrestlewar]

Chris, do you realise how gay that statement sounds

i know what i meant, only your depraved mind could make a link like that.

[the jabroni]

Slamming your monkey ass.......i'll better invest in some KY for that occasion. I can't wait!

But as for wrestling, my new principle is to avoid wrestling with people over 110kg, so i can't wrestle with you anymore Chris, i just get injured!

[wrestlewar]

i know i've put on some weight mate but 110kg's seriously lol

hope your eye gets better bud.

[mcgovern]

Slamming your monkey ass.......i'll better invest in some KY for that occasion. I can't wait!

But as for wrestling, my new principle is to avoid wrestling with people over 110kg, so i can't wrestle with you anymore Chris, i just get injured!

dont cross the line_____________

[the jabroni]

i know i've put on some weight mate but 110kg's seriously lol

hope your eye gets better bud.

Thanks mate, only messing about!

[wrestlewar]

Slamming your monkey ass.......i'll better invest in some KY for that occasion. I can't wait!

But as for wrestling, my new principle is to avoid wrestling with people over 110kg, so i can't wrestle with you anymore Chris, i just get injured!

i'm flattered about the first part mate but i'm sure you'll find someone someday i mean thats got to be some nice guy for you?

[the jabroni]

I prefer the more manly type, hard n fast hence the KY :)

Interested?

[wrestlewar]

hahahahaha


No