MMA Weight Training

[Ben C]

I recently had another fight and one thing I noticed was my decrease in and lack of strength! It didn't surprise me as I focused myself on lifting light weight for high reps to increase my muscular endurance as I thought it would tie in with my fitness, which to be fair it did.

What I would prefer in the training up to my next fight would be a routine that trains power yet at the same time I don't want to increase mass or gain any or at the very most minimal weight. I know this is difficult but is there anything anyone can suggest?

I would like it so that I can cover every area in 3 days! Something like

A - Legs + Arms
B - Chest + Abs
C - Shoulders + Back

Not sure if they work together or not but you get the idea, all help is appreciated!!!

[blanker]

you should focus on power & olympic lifts like front squats high pulls deadlifts bench press push press and pull ups.



i train twice a week like this
workout 1
front squats
push press
high pulls
pull ups

workout 2
high pulls
deadlift
bench press
pull ups

i do 5 sets for 5 reps and when i can no longer progress with 5x5 i will drop the reps to 3 and do 5x3 when i stop progressing with 5x3 i will do 5x2 and when i can no longer progress with 5x2 i will go i will go back to the weight i was using for 5x3 and do 5x5 and start the progression all over again.

focus on lifting as fast as you can even on your light sets.

[Dragunov]

Just out of curiousity... What weight are you fighting at and what are you walking around at?

Some solid advice above.. lift fast with lower reps is all I can really suggest also. Read up a little on 5x5 if you havent already

[Smiler]

Hi Ben!

'my decrease and lack of strength'

I want to give you specific advice, and also I'm chatting with a couple of strength and conditioning coaches on here too, who I'm sure would love to help you too. And, before we do so, we have to understand exactly what your problem is.

Once we know where you are, we can set direction and mode of transport to get you where you want to be as quickly as possible!

How do you know you had a 'decrease and lack of strength'?
Is this different to usual?
If it is, what was different in this occasion?
How was this decrease and lack of strength exhibited?
And what areas are suffering - is it in every area, or area specific?

I may have more questions, but the answers are the important part in getting you where you need to be!

Best regards,

Smiler

[Keerin]

related but different question - doesn't lifting slower help create stronger muscles? I know Paul McVeigh wrote about this in FO a while ago but I don;t have that issue anymore.

[simonmobiledisco]

Train x 2 a week
lift low volume and heavy.

I disagree with lift slow idea. You want to be pushing explosively the heaviest weight you can.

[sjharvey]

Train x 2 a week
lift low volume and heavy.

I disagree with lift slow idea. You want to be pushing explosively the heaviest weight you can.

OMG I'm finding myself agreeing with you here. Though I'm lifting x 3 a week at the moment but that's because I'm experimenting with an olympic lifting session once a week.

Technically the full clean (without the deep squat) seems to be the hardest exercise to learn when you're going off of youtube videos to learn technique.

Taking it slowly and gaining strength on it though, and no injury's or pulls or strains so it's all good.

[simonmobiledisco]

He is referring to training MMA, not just talking about it ;) If you can comfortable lift heavy 3 times a week and train intensive MMA. You either aren't lifting hard enough or training hard enough. Or you have amazing recovery and/or can rest all day in between.

I've been advised against Olympic lifting for MMA. It's less about raw strength and power; technique is more important. I'm not saying it doesn't have a cross over and have benefits, but there are better lifts and routines.

However if you are doing oly lifting because you like doing it go for it. I'd love to get trained to do some of those lifts properly, if i could find time to fit it in.

I'd recommend a 2 day full body or upper/lower split

a)
Squat
Bench
OH press

b)
Dead
Pull ups (weighted if poss)
Rows

5 x 5 with a linear weight (increase the weight every workout), minimum 2 days rest.

If you don't get stronger on that and still be fresh for MMA. I'll eat Smillers psychology books and and Sjharveys weight in hats

[simonmobiledisco]

maybe an idea:

when you start lifting 1.5 x your body weight on deads, maybe switch to 3x5 or 1 x 5

[blanker]

He is referring to training MMA, not just talking about it ;) If you can comfortable lift heavy 3 times a week and train intensive MMA. You either aren't lifting hard enough or training hard enough. Or you have amazing recovery and/or can rest all day in between.

I've been advised against Olympic lifting for MMA. It's less about raw strength and power; technique is more important. I'm not saying it doesn't have a cross over and have benefits, but there are better lifts and routines.

However if you are doing oly lifting because you like doing it go for it. I'd love to get trained to do some of those lifts properly, if i could find time to fit it in.

I'd recommend a 2 day full body or upper/lower split

a)
Squat
Bench
OH press

b)
Dead
Pull ups (weighted if poss)
Rows

5 x 5 with a linear weight (increase the weight every workout), minimum 2 days rest.

If you don't get stronger on that and still be fresh for MMA. I'll eat Smillers psychology books and and Sjharveys weight in hats

things like clean and jerks and snatchs are technical lifts but high pulls push press both front and behind the neck push jerks power cleans muscle snatchs clean and snatch grip pulls and front squats are no harder to learn then say deadlifts or regular squats.

[blanker]

related but different question - doesn't lifting slower help create stronger muscles? I know Paul McVeigh wrote about this in FO a while ago but I don;t have that issue anymore.

the idea with both lifting slowly and fast is to over come the momentum. take the bench press for example, its hard work until you get the bar through the sticking point but once you do the momentum takes a percentage of the load effectively making the lift easier. so you can lift deliberately slow so there is no momentum to take over or you can acceleration the bar as fast as you can (in reality the bar want be moving that fast) so the momentum dosnt have a chance to take over the load.

The problem with lifting slow is it teachs your body to lift slowly not a trate an athlete wants. Lifting fast will teach your body to move explosively. Powerlifters spend a huge amount of time on speed training even though there sport is a based sport not power.
the olympic lifts are used so widely when an athlete is looking for power precisely because of the nature of olympic lifts, you have to lift them explosively.

[simonmobiledisco]

things like clean and jerks and snatchs are technical lifts but high pulls push press both front and behind the neck push jerks power cleans muscle snatchs clean and snatch grip pulls and front squats are no harder to learn then say deadlifts or regular squats.

Lots of terms and no grammar didn't make that easy to read. But i get your gist and fair points. I guess i didn't differentiate between olympic lifts and olympic training.

However for raw strength which is predominately (before getting to the advances stage) is training the CNS and muscle fibre utilisation. Your big 3 and OH press + row will improve that best.

These are pretty much muscles pushing or pulling a lot. The oly moves depend on momentum far more and movement around that.

As said they are good exercise, but for raw strength. The basics always win

[blanker]

Sorry about the grammer. I was in a rush lol maximum strength is important, but so is power. For instance, if your trying to posture up in someones guard then you need strength and if you trying to posture up when your oponent throws up a traingle you need power.
Theres not reason you cant train for both. I do deadlifts and high pulls, exactly for this reason.

Yes raw strength is good but being strong and fast is better then just being strong.

The olympic lifts depend on you accelerating the bar or you loose the lift, for example, take the push press and military press, there basically the same exercise but if you slow done on the push press you loose the lift, were as with the military press, it dosnt matter if it takes all day to complete the rep. This teachs the body to explode and push hard the whole rep.

[Smiler]

Hmmm! Interesting reading!

I'm a great advocate of super-slow work, like Paul is, removing the momentum, making sure the muscles work completely.

BUT! I use it correctly - in other words, why are you using super-slow? For what purpose? And how do you cross it over to becoming sport specific?

Paul knows the answers, and so do I.

I think that there is a general mis-understanding coming across in many of the strength and conditioning posts that there is a 'one exercise suits all' approach, and there just isn't.

I read what people are posting and instead its more about why you are doing the what that you are doing, and how you are doing it, and for what purpose. And then placing it in context with your overall training and doing correct work to integrate it.

Break it down step by step and you'll see what I mean.

And that's why you pay good money for experienced coaches - that's the value they bring. They can put it all together for you. And that equals results!

Best regards,

Smiler

[simonmobiledisco]

absolutely.

Westside training is one of the best routines for this. The good points of olympic training is incorporated into this without the risks and maximum carry over.

Olympic training is fun and more challenging that basic lifts, but olympic training makes you better at olympic training and strength/power close 2nd. Strength/power training makes you stronger/powerful 1st, olympic lifting 2nd.

And for a MMA athlete who shouldn't train more that 3 times a week and i still stand by 2 times is better. Simple low volume strength with plenty of rest is best.

If you are training for strength first then MMA, get those olympic lifts in. definitely if want. Many Powerlifters will disagree, but so long as done correctly, it won't hurt

[simonmobiledisco]

amen smiler.

[sjharvey]

Squat jumps, power cleans and the push press help you to use your strength fast. I love strength training but I don't want to be slow. Olympic lifts by nature are explosive ain't they? You have to perform the lift fast and correctly to get the benefits more so than regular lifts.

Can't really muscle the weight up or get away with cheating on the explosive lifts.

Oh and I think that dips are better then ohp but that's just my preference.

P.s. technique is always the most important thing to me.

[Smiler]

sjharvey - strength, or power?

Smiler

[sjharvey]

sjharvey - strength, or power?

Smiler

Hopefully both. Think I can achieve both if I'm sensible about it.

Hopefully.

Day 1 squat, bench and bent rows. Dumbel lunges and dumbel shoulder press for assistance work.

Day 2 Power clean, squat jumps, push press and olympic barbel twists.

Day 3 Deadlifts, dips, chin ups and the barbel shrugs.

2 heavy sets of 3 at the mo with a back off set of 8-12. For technique really.

[Ben C]

Just out of curiousity... What weight are you fighting at and what are you walking around at?

Some solid advice above.. lift fast with lower reps is all I can really suggest also. Read up a little on 5x5 if you havent already

I fought last at 73KG and walk around at about 76/77!

When people say train x2 a week does this mean weights full stop or power weights...as how will I comensate for other muscle groups not being worked?

I know my power in my legs has gone...i was focusing only on endurance for my muscular fitness...e.g.

legs workout -
squats (40kg) x20 reps - 4 sets
lunges (16kg) x 20 reps - 4 sets
plus others for hams + calfs

I felt a good sweat and workout from them but obviously I can get this from training mma, i spose i was just training double in something i didnt really need to. perhaps focusing on power in the gym and fitness at mma will be more beneficial

[blanker]

All your muscles will be worked. You need to decide if you want to be an mma fighter or a bodybuilder. The advice you have been given will make you strong and that should be your concern, not if you have enough peak on your biceps or if your lower pecs are slightly bigger then your upper pecs.

Betwean deadlifts,bench o.h press, squats and pull ups you'll beworking every muscle in your body.

[sjharvey]

All your muscles will be worked. You need to decide if you want to be an mma fighter or a bodybuilder. The advice you have been given will make you strong and that should be your concern, not if you have enough peak on your biceps or if your lower pecs are slightly bigger then your upper pecs.

Betwean deadlifts,bench o.h press, squats and pull ups you'll beworking every muscle in your body.

Where did I mention anything like that?

Name one sentence that says I was going for muscle growth or a "peak".

You can't can you.

That's because I didn't say anything like what you implied.

If you're going to comment read the posts correctly first.

P.s. if you wasn't talking to me then my apologies.

[blanker]

Where the fuck did I mention anything like that?

Name one sentence that says I was going for muscle growth or a "peak".

You can't can you.

That's because I didn't say anything like what you implied.

If you're going to comment read the posts correctly first.

P.s. if you wasn't talking to me then my apologies.

my post wasnt directed at you. it was directed at ben c's post ( the post directly before the one of mine that you quoted) as he was concerned with muscle groups rather then overall strength which is a bodybuilding type of training rather then athletic, so go and put your tampon back in, and i would suggest not posting when its your time of the month.

[sjharvey]

my post wasnt directed at you. it was directed at ben c's post ( the post directly before the one of mine that you quoted) as he was concerned with muscle groups rather then overall strength which is a bodybuilding type of training rather then athletic, so go and put your tampon back in, and i would suggest not posting when its your time of the month.

I did say my apologies didn't I? chill.

[Ben C]

All your muscles will be worked. You need to decide if you want to be an mma fighter or a bodybuilder. The advice you have been given will make you strong and that should be your concern, not if you have enough peak on your biceps or if your lower pecs are slightly bigger then your upper pecs.

Betwean deadlifts,bench o.h press, squats and pull ups you'll beworking every muscle in your body.

Ye, i just wanted to be sure, you see i was unaware that by doing those specific exercises i would be gaining strength all round which is why i worked groups to try and attain strength all round. Now i know different i will conduct myself differently!

What about adding a 3rd day and doing the Randy Couture grappling circuit or is this too similar to what i'm doing or just not necessary?

[Smiler]

Hi, SJHarvey at a tangent, but still relevent to this thread - how do you qualify strength?

Is it maximum strength, elastic strength, strength endurance, absolute strength, relative strength....?

In other words, there's more than one thing to strength. And different training methods give different results. Do you know what results you want?

Best regards,

Smiler

[simonmobiledisco]

when ever i lift heavy (oly or basic compound) i lift as explosive as i can. If you are power lifting you ME should be as powerful and fast as you can.

Blanker what are your lifts stats?

Sjharvey interesting you compare OHP and Dips. I find dips hit my chest more and OHP hit my delts.

[blanker]

Blanker what are your lifts stats?

.

My best lifts in competition were
squat 200kg
bench 160kg
deadlift 240kg

all unequipped. i could obviously lift a little more in the gym.

I could not lift that much now, as i blew out my shoulder and dont train for powerlifting or maximum strength anymore.

[blanker]

Ye, i just wanted to be sure, you see i was unaware that by doing those specific exercises i would be gaining strength all round which is why i worked groups to try and attain strength all round. Now i know different i will conduct myself differently!

What about adding a 3rd day and doing the Randy Couture grappling circuit or is this too similar to what i'm doing or just not necessary?

personally i think your better of cycling your training. so when your not more then a say 6+ weeks out from a fight lift for power and as you start getting closer to fight day start doing more complex endurance stuff.

Weight training is only a supplementary thing anyway. you'll be better of focussing on your mma training during the 3rd day.

[simonmobiledisco]

My best lifts in competition were
squat 200kg
bench 160kg
deadlift 240kg

all unequipped. i could obviously lift a little more in the gym.

I could not lift that much now, as i blew out my shoulder and dont train for powerlifting or maximum strength anymore.

great stuff, at what weight?

personally, i thought i disagreed with some of Blanker's stuff, but the guy obviously knows his stuff to lift those figures (assuming real) so listen to his advice. More so than me. He has 35-50% on my lifts

[blanker]

i was 95kg or so when i lifted those weights.

[sjharvey]

Hi, SJHarvey at a tangent, but still relevent to this thread - how do you qualify strength?

Is it maximum strength, elastic strength, strength endurance, absolute strength, relative strength....?

In other words, there's more than one thing to strength. And different training methods give different results. Do you know what results you want?

Best regards,

Smiler

Hi. Not sure was the difference between max strength and absolute strength is.

Olympic are included to ensure that I can be fast and explosive with my strength.

My current goals are,

Increase weight on my lifts. (pretty much got that part covered but always open to new ideas)

Increase VO2 capacity.

Separate workout either circuit style or caveman stye for conditioning.

Thanks.

[spirez]

I think sometimes that a lot of people forget that weights are simply a supplement to MMA training. Not so much on here but particularly over on sherdog. They seem to slate bodybuilding methods, which is fair cop, but then go on to advocate powerlifting to anyone and everyone! Neither are ideal for sporting performance.

I come from a different mindset to a lot of coaches in that for me, injury prevention is top priority. I follow the likes of Jon Chaimberg and Dewey Nielsen in that respect.

After all, it's no good being able to squat 200kg if you can't train because of injury.

I don't see much mention of single leg strength here. Squats and deads are great and i do program them but they should also be supplemented with single leg work. Bulgarians, split squats, lunges, single leg squats and deads etc etc After all, we are working from a single leg stance for the vast majority of the time. The stability component of these moves is also great for reducing risk of injury.

Also other types of prehab work. Core stability, shoulder/hip mobility etc etc

I also think that pretty much all qualities should be trained all of the time, but to varying degrees. If you are close to a fight, power endurance is key. Further out, more max strength work. Somewhere in between, concentrate on pure power etc etc. It's not that straight forward but you get the idea!

regarding the slow reps etc, look into work by Christian Thibedeau on intramuscular tension.


In every concentric contraction (overcoming or lifting a load), lifting a certain weight
with more acceleration will always produce a greater degree of intramuscular tension.

In an eccentric contraction (yielding or lowering a resistance) it’s the opposite; the less
acceleration you allow, the more intramuscular tension there will be.

So if you want the most tension, and therefore a greater training effect, lower slowly then explode up. I vary the eccentric time from anywhere between 2-5 seconds but the concentric is always done as fast as possible.

[simonmobiledisco]

also i a lot of people seem to forget you can split priorities. I strength train because i like it, not for MMA.

i train MMA for fun and a hobby i like. i have no interest in competing, just being physical sharp and keeping my competitive spirit going

[Head Hunter]

As a fully qualified and acredited martial arts strength & Conditioing coach i know the answer to your question. There is a perfect solution to this problem that you hav but is quite technical. If you want to contact me via my website www.fight-science.co.uk i would be happy to discuss this with you in private. These are my secrets and i do not wish to share them with everyone. Believe me i have the solution to all combat sport conditioing requiremnets. I have spent many years researching this area at degree level. hope to hear from you soon regards. Nick

[sjharvey]

Sjharvey interesting you compare OHP and Dips. I find dips hit my chest more and OHP hit my delts.

I've stalled for years on the standing OHP. When I use dips regularly I progress well on them.

I'd read several times that dips work your shoulders hard so about 3 months ago I did an experiment with two different workouts.

I did my OHP before I did my dips and I'll tell you what, I could barely do any reps because my shoulders were sore.

I might be wrong but it convinced me to stick with doing dips and introduce push presses into my program.

[Smiler]

Hi,

Absolute strength is the maximum force that an athlete can express, irrespective of body weight.

This differs from relative strength which is the maximum force that an athlete can express in relation to body weight.

Maximum strength is gross strength, the greatest force the neuro-muscular system is capable of exerting in a single maximum voluntary contraction.

Hope that helps a bit!

Yep, there’s more to it that just ‘strength’…

It’s not necessarily about the exercise that you do, but instead how to do the exercise. Now, that’s a good generalisation, and it is nonetheless something important to bear in mind in your training.

Head Hunter, how’re you doing mate? Good I hope! You got the lab and all the equipment set up yet? I can’t wait until you roll out properly – what you are proposing to do is something that every fighter will want to work with!

Best regards,

Smiler

[Wiegieboard]

He is referring to training MMA, not just talking about it ;) If you can comfortable lift heavy 3 times a week and train intensive MMA. You either aren't lifting hard enough or training hard enough. Or you have amazing recovery and/or can rest all day in between.

I've been advised against Olympic lifting for MMA. It's less about raw strength and power; technique is more important. I'm not saying it doesn't have a cross over and have benefits, but there are better lifts and routines.

However if you are doing oly lifting because you like doing it go for it. I'd love to get trained to do some of those lifts properly, if i could find time to fit it in.

I'd recommend a 2 day full body or upper/lower split

a)
Squat
Bench
OH press

b)
Dead
Pull ups (weighted if poss)
Rows

5 x 5 with a linear weight (increase the weight every workout), minimum 2 days rest.

If you don't get stronger on that and still be fresh for MMA. I'll eat Smillers psychology books and and Sjharveys weight in hats

This is a SHIT HOT plan. I did this for about 4 months (minus overhead) when I started back and I made absolutely unbelievable gains. I ate like fuck for the first 5 months doing this and gained a serious amount of strength.
I'm actually considering going back to this style of training exactly after my over reaching is finished. Plenty of time for rest which means more cardio and a solid return to subwrestling for me in the summer which I have been looking incredibly forward to.

[briant_gumble]

I think sometimes that a lot of people forget that weights are simply a supplement to MMA training. Not so much on here but particularly over on sherdog. They seem to slate bodybuilding methods, which is fair cop, but then go on to advocate powerlifting to anyone and everyone! Neither are ideal for sporting performance.


I've never heard an arguement I've been totally by for powerlifting for sporting performance.

The usual arguement is that powerlifting trains your nervous system more than most other types of resistance training but most exercises in mma train your nervous system.

I've noticed a lot more people I've trained with develop "an increase in strength without size" from getting on the mat a lot and grappling than I have from them doing powerlifting style exercises.

[Galezo]

I like to do drop sets, on excersies, such as bench, deadlift, squat, curls, lateral raises etc. what to do is, get a weight you can perform 6-8 reps with good form, but is a challenging weight! then once you have completed the 6-8 reps drop the weight 10-15% then -8reps of that, then drop weight again and do the same. Only drop the weight 3 times, then rest for 1 minute then repeat do 3 sets, this quickly builds strength and power as i have found. Obviously increase the weight week by week but, if your really sore the next time you go to train the muscle i would strongly recommend leaving it as this is the period where your body is recovering and getting stronger! Rest is crucial!

I started with a 1 rep max of 50kgs (embarrassing i know) but after 3 weeks of doing this workout 3 times a week, my 1 rep max is now at 90kgs, which even surprised me!! same with deadlifts and squat, they have both improved tremendously!!

Keep this to maybe twice a week to start with if you do other conditioning days, and also mix it up with some plyometric exersices and heavy weight sessions like someone said above with a 5x5 workout

Hope this helps!