Why isn't Muay Thai more popular as a spectator sport?

[Iconoclast]

I often hear people state that they only enjoy MMA when the fighters are striking. Once they go to the ground many casual fight fans tell me they lose interest.

The failure of the casual fight fan to appreciate grappling is why MMA may never be as successful as boxing IMO.

If that's the case, then why isn't Muay Thai more popular? From what I've seen it is a very fast and exciting sport. Unlike boxing the fights are often far more evenly matched and unlike MMA, the fighters aren't "rolling around on the ground humping each other".

Is Muay Thai a more popular spectator sport in the UK and the US than MMA? If not why not?

[Keerin]

the rules and scoring can be confusing for participants, never mind casual spectators. it can be hard to explain decisions and why certain strikes score more or less. plus refereeing and judging is inconsistent at best (only talking scotland here). I can only speak from my own experience here though, I've had two fights and cornered 4 I think and there has been confusing aspects in each one.

I've found that Muay Thai in Scotland has a reputation which puts people off as well. When I tell folk I've competed in Muay Thai they think I'm hard as fuck, which is probably the opposite of the truth since I got beat twice and haven't finished 5 rounds yet!

[Allan Shrek]

The scoring is counter intuitive and the clinch is more boring than any ground work.

[dunny]

thai boxing is mega popular round our way, pretty much every show is a sell out, sken even does a show at the MEN. the best show in my opinion is the rumble at the reebok series

[thaison]

The scoring is an issue, would be best of UKMF or other govrning bodies tried to educate the crowd at shows about the scoring system and how its based on effect. some shows will put a break down of the scoring in the show programme which i think is a good idea. Good clinch can be awesome to watch, i think the UK suffers in the clinch area due to the restrictions there in C class and B class rules which dont allow elbows/knees to head (c class) or elbows to the head (b class) well matched A- class fighters clinching is really exciting to watch.

Bit of a shame the sport doesnt get more tv exposure in the UK, on a world scale the UK produces some excellent fighters considering how small it is.

[thaison]

I think some of the big shows like the MEN shows and the Reebok show are good for MT, bigger arenas with bigger production values than the usual shows

[MaB]

Bores the shit outta me..... Personal opinion no offence meant... If taken then fick ya

[Iconoclast]

Bores the shit outta me..... Personal opinion no offence meant... If taken then fick ya

No offence taken, but what bores you about it? I don't claim to fully understand the scoring but I really enjoy watching it.

In Thailand I've heard that up to 70% of a fight can be clinchwork. I've heard it's because it's what the crowd wants. Don't know how true that is though?

[thaison]

No offence taken, but what bores you about it? I don't claim to fully understand the scoring but I really enjoy watching it.

In Thailand I've heard that up to 70% of a fight can be clinchwork. I've heard it's because it's what the crowd wants. Don't know how true that is though?

Just depends on the fighters and the fight some gyms do produce fighters who like/look to clinch the samee as some gyms produce kickers and some produce punchers, the clinch isnt the same there however much more technical, constantly looking for position so they can off balance or hurt the guys with knees and elbows.

[maz]

The scoring is counter intuitive and the clinch is more boring than any ground work.

the scoring makes perfect sense? its not about who throws the most or attempts the most techniques, its about who is actually doing more damage and causing the most effect and who actually hurts their opponent the most...surely in a fight this is how it should be?
i agree that to the average spectator, clinch is difficult to understand as the average joe isnt really looking to see who is off balancing, who is turning, throwing etc but they do understand a knee that shows effect!
clinch is pretty much grappling but just stood up, there is no difference at all to the average person watching who knows nothing about it, to the average person watching people grappling on the floor, it has exactly the the same subtle movements.
Muay Thai is getting bigger and bigger with shows like MSA. lots of shows such as the bad co shows, have an explanation of the scoring in the programmes.
its a totally different environment and atmosphere to mma though, rarely do you see any meathead idiots starting fights in the crowd (im not saying mma fighters are like that, i know there not but 90% of the crowd are).

its also much, much harder to fight in Muay Thai. someone who has been training mma for 2-3 months will get a semi-pro fight no problem, people throw themselves into mma whether they are ready or not. you just cant do that in muay thai, interclubs and amateur maybe, but even for a c-class fight if you're not completely ready for it you're gonna get shown up in a big way.
its a much smaller community and most thai gyms wont let someone fight if they have been training on and off for only a few months, which seems to happen all the time in mma. im not saying this is always wrong as it depends on the fighters abilities but it doesn't really happen in thai.

[Allan Shrek]

I've seen arseholes behaving like arseholes at Thai shows just the same as I have at MMA shows, both small and large shows with their share of arseholes. I've only been to about 12 Thai shows though so it's not the biggest sample group.

Same thing with fighters, I've seen good and bad first time fighters in both sports, maybe in the North East there are guys fighting semi-pro after 2-3 months but not North of the border.

I'd fancy fighting Thai again but the need to throw a million body kicks isn't really my bag.

[Atlasmma]

I've watched Muay Thai in Thailand and loved it, but I was pretty drunk at the time. A hell of a lot of it was contested in the clinch and to the untrained eye it wasn't very spectacular. Now K1 and K1 rules fights on the other hand, are awesomely exciting to watch.

[Shaun.R.]

the scoring makes perfect sense? its not about who throws the most or attempts the most techniques, its about who is actually doing more damage and causing the most effect and who actually hurts their opponent the most...surely in a fight this is how it should be?



its also much, much harder to fight in Muay Thai. someone who has been training mma for 2-3 months will get a semi-pro fight no problem, people throw themselves into mma whether they are ready or not. you just cant do that in muay thai, interclubs and amateur maybe, but even for a c-class fight if you're not completely ready for it you're gonna get shown up in a big way.
its a much smaller community and most thai gyms wont let someone fight if they have been training on and off for only a few months, which seems to happen all the time in mma. im not saying this is always wrong as it depends on the fighters abilities but it doesn't really happen in thai.


that is not how muay thai is scored atall, also in thailand depending where you fight the rules of scoring change. you can do nothing in some fights but if you look good doing it you will win!

you cant get fights after a month? you can walk in a thai gym and before you have even hit a pad they ask you to fight lol

http://www.siamfightmag.com/reportages/reportage_anglais/the_punters/the_punters.htm

[Iconoclast]

Now K1 and K1 rules fights on the other hand, are awesomely exciting to watch.


Is K1 the most popular fighting spectator sport in Japan?

Outside of Japan where else is it really popular?

[Atlasmma]

I think as a sport it's on the rise. The problem is they haven't really got a set of weight classes to cater for all. It's getting better with k1max and stuff though. I think if they turn it into a proper promotion with better weight divisions it'll be huge.

[Yak]

Maz is correct thai scoring is about effect not just number of techniques or agression
you can win a fight (as have many raja / lumpinee champs) by just teeping , or left leg kicking, or knees

thai fights arent all clinch - which is beautiful to watch
bit like saying any MMA fight that goes to ground is dull as they just 'roll around'

depends on the camp as to the style

that article on points isnt correct- special techniques score no more highly if they dont have effect
its not perceived difficulty that scores - its whether it effects, unbalances, halts a boxers advance etc

[maz]

that is not how muay thai is scored atall, also in thailand depending where you fight the rules of scoring change. you can do nothing in some fights but if you look good doing it you will win!

you cant get fights after a month? you can walk in a thai gym and before you have even hit a pad they ask you to fight lol

http://www.siamfightmag.com/reportages/reportage_anglais/the_punters/the_punters.htm

???
of course it is how its scored! have a look at some of Tony Myers literature on scoring etc or even better go to one of his judging assesments.
thai scoring is based on effect, simple as that. anything that hits the mid-body, i.e. body kicks, knees to the body, strong teeps to the body, are automatically assumed to have effect (whether its shown or not) but anything else has to show effect to score, even elbows have to cut really to score. muay thai is all about off balancing your opponent and following up with techniques (i.e. having effect) its about breaking down their posture and balance and hurting them, its self-explanitory.

and as for walking into a thai gym and being asked to fight practically straight away, that might happen in a gym that doesnt give a shit about their reputation but any good thai gym in the UK would not do that. the community is too small for that, reputation means everything.

it happens in some gyms in thailand because the thai's will just make money out of farangs. its totally different there anywhere, the scoring criteria is the same but its all angled towards the gamblers.

[thaison]

the scoring makes perfect sense? its not about who throws the most or attempts the most techniques, its about who is actually doing more damage and causing the most effect and who actually hurts their opponent the most...surely in a fight this is how it should be?
i agree that to the average spectator, clinch is difficult to understand as the average joe isnt really looking to see who is off balancing, who is turning, throwing etc but they do understand a knee that shows effect!
clinch is pretty much grappling but just stood up, there is no difference at all to the average person watching who knows nothing about it, to the average person watching people grappling on the floor, it has exactly the the same subtle movements.
Muay Thai is getting bigger and bigger with shows like MSA. lots of shows such as the bad co shows, have an explanation of the scoring in the programmes.
its a totally different environment and atmosphere to mma though, rarely do you see any meathead idiots starting fights in the crowd (im not saying mma fighters are like that, i know there not but 90% of the crowd are).

its also much, much harder to fight in Muay Thai. someone who has been training mma for 2-3 months will get a semi-pro fight no problem, people throw themselves into mma whether they are ready or not. you just cant do that in muay thai, interclubs and amateur maybe, but even for a c-class fight if you're not completely ready for it you're gonna get shown up in a big way.
its a much smaller community and most thai gyms wont let someone fight if they have been training on and off for only a few months, which seems to happen all the time in mma. im not saying this is always wrong as it depends on the fighters abilities but it doesn't really happen in thai.

Some obvious generalisations in there, crowds differ from show to show event to event, ive seen just as much trouble at thai shows as i have MMA shows and thankfully its not that regualr occurance.

Also if clubs/gyms want to put guys into fight with 2-3 months training/if there not ready for it then thats the sign of a bad gym, MMA has bad gyms the same way Thai does, it also has alot of proffesional gyms producing well rounded technical athletes the same way thai does. Ive seen people in both MMA and Thai fights who shouldnt be any where near a ring/cage.

[Reedy]

its the music in the back ground.

[T-T]

its the music in the back ground.

This!!!!!!

[maz]

Thaison i agree, there are gyms of every discipline that put out fighters too early and yes, there is trouble at every type of show occasionally, but going from my own experience, there is a lot more trouble at mma shows, just my opinion but there are nearly always scuffles in the crowd!!!

[Shaun.R.]

???
of course it is how its scored! have a look at some of Tony Myers literature on scoring etc or even better go to one of his judging assesments.
thai scoring is based on effect, simple as that. anything that hits the mid-body, i.e. body kicks, knees to the body, strong teeps to the body, are automatically assumed to have effect (whether its shown or not) but anything else has to show effect to score, even elbows have to cut really to score. muay thai is all about off balancing your opponent and following up with techniques (i.e. having effect) its about breaking down their posture and balance and hurting them, its self-explanitory.

and as for walking into a thai gym and being asked to fight practically straight away, that might happen in a gym that doesnt give a shit about their reputation but any good thai gym in the UK would not do that. the community is too small for that, reputation means everything.

it happens in some gyms in thailand because the thai's will just make money out of farangs. its totally different there anywhere, the scoring criteria is the same but its all angled towards the gamblers.

that is thai, thats how thai is scored.

if it was as simple as you say people wouldnt say the rules are confusing.

[thaison]

Thaison i agree, there are gyms of every discipline that put out fighters too early and yes, there is trouble at every type of show occasionally, but going from my own experience, there is a lot more trouble at mma shows, just my opinion but there are nearly always scuffles in the crowd!!!

you must be going to some rough shows then hahaha, occasionally there is some trouble but not anymore so than at thai or boxing shows IMO

[maz]

of course the rules maybe confusing to someone who doesnt train thai or to the general public, but no more confusing at all, than to someone who doesn't train mma or any sort of wrestling/grappling/bjj (which is the majority of the general public).
when you understand the whole 'having effect' concept then its not so confusing and makes perfect sense...its a fight!

mma will always be more popular than thai though, at least for the forseeable future. a lot of it is down to marketing and promotion, the whole mma scene has way, way more of it than thai and there is also heaps more money in mma, at the top flight anyway.
if thai had the sort of publicity and marketing that mma has then it could change but until that happens it wont, it will always be a niche sport not mainstream, it is still in my opinion though, the most superior stand-up art out there.

james, thats probably true lol.

[john joe]

loads of reasons, from the ram muay before every fight to the irritating music to the one-for-one standing and trading with lots of shots blocked, slow kind of rythm, lack of stoppages, and so on. I used to be MT-mad until I got into K-1 and MMA, they killed MT for me as a spectator sport

[dunny]

loads of reasons, from the ram muay before every fight to the irritating music to the one-for-one standing and trading with lots of shots blocked, slow kind of rythm, lack of stoppages, and so on. I used to be MT-mad until I got into K-1 and MMA, they killed MT for me as a spectator sport

its funny, all those reasons are the exact reason i am getting more and more into thai. its totally different to mma so its a nice change. i think k1 is similar to mma in many ways, some of the fighters even cross over and do both and it can get a bit repetitive, i welcome the change

[Yak]

reason is we have Boxing and MMA which generally award the 'busier' aggressive fighter - generally

thai doesnt - but isnt hard to score once you clear your head of your 'bias'

boxing has given plenty of strange decisions out too (due to promoters protecting their fighters) so money has an influence here too (as it does with the gamblers in thailand) however the scoring is most definately as Maz has outlined - its just not enough people understand it (for whatever reason) its not hard - just so many trainers who are really kickboxers teaching 'muay thai' still apply kickboxing scoring

things like MSA have trimmed down the ram muays - many shows now just ask to seal the ring (ie all four corners) which speeds things up

thai classes are busier - just from my own experience with plenty of MMA fighters cross training

i dont mind the music - however it should be live - it sounds odd in the uk as they use the same 5 round tape - when the music should reflect the pace of the fight -

also cant recall the last time at a thai show where i heard a crowd boo when they clinch

yet been to plenty of UFC's where the crowd start booing the moment it hits the floor

as to success - very simple

MONEY and MARKETING

which i think MSA and Rumble are addressing

ass for putting fighters out early - happens in all sports and is down to the trainers again - i know for a fact that the gym i use in thailand wouldnt put anyone out unless ready at a major stadium as would reflect badly on them

MT over K1 anyday - like for like - plenty of very very dull k1 shows on where its just punch punch low kick (and repeat for 3 rounds) hardly that exciting -

the GPs etc are fun to watch but then compare that to the Lumpinee vs Raja Champions nights or the other super shows and i know where id rather be

[ocuana]

The fully trained art of Muay Thai is beautiful, but A) Thai people are raised on it like we are football and B) Their level of dedication as a whole makes it that more interesting to watch because of it being at the highest level.

MMA still has the whole blood and death thing surrounding it and will appeal to anybody who enjoys violence of any kind, even if the fighters are as gassed as lanced buffalo.
Boxing is very traditional in this country and will always have a huge participation. We also have a huge stock of talented numbers.
Muay Thai is great, but just how many Kru's (teachers) know what they are teaching exactly? We have some very traditionally educated Thai practitioners of a high level and some great fighters, but the numbers are lower - plus the governing body thing for Muay Thai is really only just starting to break through the politics now. So, although we have a few amazing fighters, we have very few.
Don't most people go to watch events regularly because they have favourite fighters?
What incentive is there domestically for a fighter to continue through hard injury for one of the lowest paid professional sports? Most (not all) shows have debuting fighter's and inexperienced fighters which often makes for a slightly less quality performance.


After attending several Thai events - I also realise that it's hard to educate an English crowd after a pint or two, so the Wai Kru Ram Muay put people off, which is a shame.

[Yak]

thats why people end up going to K1 or doing the dutch rules circuit
although again we are seeing some tournaments now here and in asia (ie outside of thailand) with some semi decent money albeith still overall poorly paid p4p
but with the tournaments, MSA, the UKMFetc etc all gives MT a good chance of gaining a bit of ground

[AndrewC]

I think the scoring is one of the major reasons why it will never be mainstream. People are always using the 'it's like a race' analogy and 'it's all based on effect', etc. But your average 'walk in' punter doesn't give a flying fuck about the nuances of MT scoring and how it's done in Thailand, and has no desire to learn or find out; he wants to see a fantastic tear up and if it goes the distance he wants to see the person who won the most rounds as the winner. The fact that the first two rounds are usually not scored (unless there's a knockdown or serious dominance) is also hard for the average punter (without knowledge of MT and the scoring) to comprehend.

IMO the casual fan doesn't have the patience to learn what's required to fully appreciate a MT fight. It's too complicated for them and to be fair would put me off it I hadn't got into MT through training.

I've been into Muay Thai for over 17 years and have brought many non MT people to shows over these years and the scoring always confuses them and frustrates them. The majority rarely go back.

It's the greatest spectator sport in the world for me and beautiful to watch when done well; but I can't see it ever not being a minority interest sport.

MMA on the other hand, despite being more technical than MT, the general public gets (on a base level); whoever wins the most rounds wins; simples!!

[Keerin]

I've been taught it's just the first round is traditionally a 10-10. The second round also being a 10-10 only in a title fight. Judged may still use the first round as a decider if the rest of the fight is even however, so it isn't a total washout. That tradition most likely came about because fighters would use the first round to get in a tempo, find their distance etc. like pro boxers do in the first few rounds (not all mind you).

I personally haven't seen a fight where one person wins 3/5 rounds and loses the fight, that's just messed up officiating and I can't think of an example off the top of my head where that could occur, exclusive to Muay Thai. Not calling anyone a liar, just hasn't occured in the small number of Thai shows I've seen.

[AndrewC]

I've been taught it's just the first round is traditionally a 10-10. The second round also being a 10-10 only in a title fight. Judged may still use the first round as a decider if the rest of the fight is even however, so it isn't a total washout. That tradition most likely came about because fighters would use the first round to get in a tempo, find their distance etc. like pro boxers do in the first few rounds (not all mind you).

I personally haven't seen a fight where one person wins 3/5 rounds and loses the fight, that's just messed up officiating and I can't think of an example off the top of my head where that could occur, exclusive to Muay Thai. Not calling anyone a liar, just hasn't occured in the small number of Thai shows I've seen.

The first two rounds are not normally scored in a FTR (5x3) fight; although the judge may put a mark against the fighters name who he thinks edged the round as if the fight is close this may be taken into consideration at the end when racking up the scores.

Rounds four and five are the 'money rounds'. I've seen numerous fights where someone may have edged rounds one and two and three, but losts rounds four and five and the decision goes against him. It's how Muay Thai is scored. It's 'like a race' finishing strongly shows dominance; which is scored high in MT.

Effect (body kicks and knees are considered more effective then punches, low kicks and elbows generally), dominance, technique are all scored highly. You might land ten ineffective punches but a few good knees, dumping your opponent to the ground and body kicks will outscore that. An 'uneducated' punter will not realise this and be perplexed how someone who landed ten punches might lose the round to someone who scored a few good body kicks or knees.

You won't see this in B & C class fights so much; which are ususally the majority of fights on any show (apart from the big shows).

I'm not the best at explaining this (despite having been on a couple of Tony Myer's courses many moons ago) someone more articulate than me will do a better job.

I believe the above to pretty accurate but, if it's not I'm sure somone will point it out.

[Shaun.R.]

I think the scoring is one of the major reasons why it will never be mainstream. People are always using the 'it's like a race' analogy and 'it's all based on effect', etc. But your average 'walk in' punter doesn't give a flying fuck about the nuances of MT scoring and how it's done in Thailand, and has no desire to learn or find out; he wants to see a fantastic tear up and if it goes the distance he wants to see the person who won the most rounds as the winner. The fact that the first two rounds are usually not scored (unless there's a knockdown or serious dominance) is also hard for the average punter (without knowledge of MT and the scoring) to comprehend.

IMO the casual fan doesn't have the patience to learn what's required to fully appreciate a MT fight. It's too complicated for them and to be fair would put me off it I hadn't got into MT through training.



to add to what you said, when i go to fights in thailand the crowd gets all rowdy because one guy is landing some serious punches for every round and they think he is dominating. then the crowd are confused as hell when he loses not knowing punches bascially dont count! (unless you knock him out obviously)

you can stand and just listen to everyone saying "why did that guy lose?" "why did this guy win?" threw out the whole night

[Yak]

if you are in thailand - listen to the gamblers ;-)

Andrew is pretty much spot on

elbows have to cut or unstabalize someone

boxing has to drop or unstabalize someone - idea being you have gloves on (so its protection) and also its easy to land a jab (which doesnt hurt so much)

once you can understand the rules its such a beautiful sport

the scoring explained simply in programs etc or on the live shows makes it a bit easier i think and doesnt take much effort but educates the crowd iand increases the enjoyment

however K1 is easy to understand but yet that hasnt taken off in the US which has easily as big a background in boxing

muay thai as muay thai ie undilluted may well grow more but will still be 'niche'

good and bad in that -

options to fight in k1 are there but it is a different sport

[urbangorilla]

i agree thaison maybe the crowed does need educated a bit more, i done a interclub some years back & when i was showing the video to my family they were laughing & saying things like " look they r just cuddling each other,hahaha." "thats not fighting" ect! when me & the dude were clinching.
but these cats got brought up watching boxing & dont understand what is going on in the clinch.

[Keerin]

You might land ten ineffective punches but a few good knees, dumping your opponent to the ground and body kicks will outscore that. An 'uneducated' punter will not realise this and be perplexed how someone who landed ten punches might lose the round to someone who scored a few good body kicks or knees.



I get you now, I was just being thick! haha cheers.

[Fightshop.Com]

Take the UFC out of the equation and in the UK Muay Thai is way, way more popular than MMA as a spectator sport.

The shows tend to be smaller than MMA shows but there are far, far more and take place more often.

[JRgymfan]

muay thai events hosted by the current muay thai world champion:

www.jrgym.co.uk

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http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=57775795813#!/group.php?gid=57775795813

[yorkshire gripper]

To me, K1 loses it's appeal due to the lack of clinch work. Muay Thai stands out because of said clinch, and when you get two well matched guys that are very skilled in that area, the result is usually a very exciting and grueling fight.

[Wiegieboard]

I absolutely love watching thai. It's one of my absolute favourite sports to watch but actually know a lot of folk who can't watch it because of the music.

[Yak]

think its funny - a) music isnt live just a cd so its not really correct but it does add atmosphere (i personally love it)

and those 'against' wont mind football style chants or people screaming such useful 'hit him' or 'kill him' in a boxing/mma match

[BigBadDom]

I was fighting/watching my first fight on saturday and i agree totally. You cant see whats going on so much on the ground because you're not close to the action like you are on the TV. Plus with amatuer/semi pro cage fights the fight goes to the ground more quickly and then you're just waiting for the result.

Big up the K1 and Muay Thai, its part of the game either way

[mattyjudo]

think its funny - a) music isnt live just a cd so its not really correct but it does add atmosphere (i personally love it)

Funny, I was just about to ask if I'm the only one on here who actually likes the music? Adds atmosphere imo.

[Yak]

i love it, part of the sport, but it should follow the pace of the fight or add encouragement...live in thailand its a band that play to the tempo of the fight (which is cool) whereas here everyone uses the standard one version CD (so the first round music is slow - even if the two fighters are going bananas in round one)