Gracie University Grading Credability

[LondonGhaazi]

Do you think that belt gradings from the Gracie University are credable?

There is a lot of criticism from people who consider grading through videos as utter nonsense, but how is it different from an instructor watching a video of someone to watching them live?

[Rob T]

Rolling with someone or watching them regularly against a selection of different people is totally different to watching a video, that should be obvious. Grading someone from watching a video is a money making scheme and nothing else.

[Simon Hayes]

No.Not credible at all.

[nihilist]

and close thread. shouldn't even be open to discussion. perhaps for other martial arts maybe, but this is not for bjj.

[jackmcd]

On tape you can send a highlight reel of your greatest sweeps and rolls. In person, there's no way to hide from your instructor's eyes when your training partners maul you.

[dave coles]

On tape you can send a highlight reel of your greatest sweeps and rolls. In person, there's no way to hide from your instructor's eyes when your training partners maul you.

Just to play devils advocate.
How about a highlight reel of your greatest sweeps and rolls performed in competition?

[jackmcd]

Just to play devils advocate.
How about a highlight reel of your greatest sweeps and rolls performed in competition?

It's the same thing really, it's a manipulation of reality by deleting the bits that make a person look embarrassing. It's a bit like playing a season on Fifa and re-loading the game every time you lose a match. It might make you look good on paper, but it bears little relation to your actual skill level.

[dave coles]

It's the same thing really, it's a manipulation of reality by deleting the bits that make a person look embarrassing. It's a bit like playing a season on Fifa and re-loading the game every time you lose a match. It might make you look good on paper, but it bears little relation to your actual skill level.

very true, I didn't pick up on the 'highlight' reel and was thinking more along the lines of full fight videos.

[slideyfoot]

Do you think that belt gradings from the Gracie University are credable?

Not before blue belt, as there is no sparring whatsoever, only compliant drills (which I babble about more here (http://www.slideyfoot.com/2009/08/dvd-review-gracie-combatives-rener.html#onlinebelt)). There might be more of an argument for after blue belt, as they do apparently include sparring (according to this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbV43tpgbQQ#t=6m30s)), but there are still plenty of major problems with that. Most significant is that students will still be evaluated on video running through what is basically a BJJ kata, rather than by an instructor who has been observing your rolling in person with a range of training partners over a long period.

[Tony L]

what about being graded through a seminar? Is this not as bad?

say any of the Gracie University guy graded someone at a seminar or any other BJJ black belt?

I'm not looking to stir anything or argue just plain curious lol

[david5]

spielberg directed my video submission and i was proud to be awarded my black clapper board under renner

[Truemanc]

A higher grade has to roll with the guy..... not just for his movement but his awareness of the setups resistance timing defence and his base..... they are just a few points that come to mind.

A video is just a bunch of dead movements...... you just cant tell untill you feel the guys jj.

I have rolled with guys who make alot of mistakes but do well because they have good awareness and defence.

It is impossible to guage a persons ability till you roll with them..... there are just too many variables to consider.

[bomberh]

It is impossible to guage a persons ability till you roll with them..... there are just too many variables to consider.

I don't need to roll with Roger Gracie to tell that he is very good.

I agree with you that rolling with a person is a very good way of assessing them. However, personally, I believe that experienced grapplers can judge the standard of another person by watching them execute techniques and spar. I am a qualified Judo examiner and I grade people by watching them perform techniques and fight. Movement, kuzushi, tsukuri, gripping patterns, timing etc can all be judged visually. My friend who is a 6th dan with metal hips can't "roll" with people anymore due to injuries. However, his expert eye allows him to dissect techniques and analyse anyone's game.

The difference with the above and Gracie University is that when I grade someone, I choose the opponents and I watch them in real time. There is no re-recording a fight just because it went badly and there is no re-performing a technique lots of times until by luck it goes well. As such the Gracie University grades BJJers will more likely be p*ss weak compared to those who have a proper instructor.

[slideyfoot]

There is no re-recording a fight just because it went badly and there is no re-performing a technique lots of times until by luck it goes well.

Good point. IIRC, there are some rules in place to try and stop that (e.g., I think the whole video has to be done in one take), but presumably a capable video editor could abuse that system.

[bomberh]

I don't think that the Gracie University system is completely without merit. The guys will be learning something and able to perform techniques with a degree of competence. I just don't think that they will get to anywhere like the degree of competence a student will under a good black belt. That said if you are studying under a good instructor in a good club the videos can be a good point of reference because they are very well produced and the standard and clarity of the explanations is excellent. So if you live in subsaharan Africa or in the Oceanic region and there are no decent clubs if any then this system is as good as it gets and is useful. If you live in London next to Roger Gracie et al, then it is a poor substitute.

[slideyfoot]

If you live in London next to Roger Gracie et al, then it is a poor substitute.

One of the things that concerns me about Gracie University is that people might end up picking the online route rather than getting proper instruction from a BJJ club on their doorstep. Especially as the hypothetical situation you describe has indeed happened (http://www.efnsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=7942.0).

[TRIBULUS]

Better than nothing but if you're doing this when there is an academy down the road then you are kidding yourself.

[Luke]

Not before blue belt, as there is no sparring whatsoever, only compliant drills

Compliant drills are good to help develop basic techniques. There's no point going straight into sparring if you're an absolute beginner.

As for online tuition, I can't see the quality of tuition being there. It's not the same as proper class tuition where a teacher analyses your techniques and helps you to iron out bad habits and gets you to focus on specific aspects to help improve your game.

[slideyfoot]

Compliant drills are good to help develop basic techniques. There's no point going straight into sparring if you're an absolute beginner.

Compliant drills are good to introduce the mechanics of a technique. However, IMO it is essential to then take the next step to progressive resistance, then sparring. That's how I structure my classes.

Although I would agree that it is worth holding off on free sparring for white belts: I'll often stick with specific sparring when I teach (e.g., start in guard, person on the bottom tries to sweep or submit, person on top tries to pass. If either achieves their goal, restart in guard).

That's also what they did (presumably still do?) at RGA HQ . When I was there, lessons were split between beginner and advanced. In the beginner class, you only did specific sparring. Free sparring came in during the higher level classes.

[liamwandi]

I live in a biggish city with several fantastic opportunities to train BJJ. I am very aware of how lucky I am and how the situation could have been very different. There are millions of people around the world who have no access to high quality BJJ techniques and any form of assessment. The video process is a way for a high level practitioner to give guidance on BJJ to a learner. It's not the best way, of course not, but for many it's as good as it gets.

[liamwandi]

Although I would agree that it is worth holding off on free sparring for white belts: I'll often stick with specific sparring when I teach (e.g., start in guard, person on the bottom tries to sweep or submit, person on top tries to pass. If either achieves their goal, restart in guard).

That's also what they did (presumably still do?) at RGA HQ . When I was there, lessons were split between beginner and advanced. In the beginner class, you only did specific sparring. Free sparring came in during the higher level classes.

That's exactly what we do at the Labs too. It works brilliantly and everybody learns :)

[fishface]

Same at my place, plenty of specifics, works well at all levels :cool:

F

[daddybaresi]

Just curious, if you only have positional sparring and no free sparring, how do white belts prepare for comps? Is it through open mat sessions?

We do some of the specifics or positional stuff, but free spar at the end of every class.

as for grading online... no need for it IMO. plenty of places to train in the UK.

[liamwandi]

Sorry for the delayed reply!

I can't think of any white belts who have competed without doing at least a few of the advanced sessions (where there's plenty free sparring).

White belts are welcome to join the second session (advanced BJJ) where Martyn teaches a little more quickly and drills against resistance and then we roll for approx 40-45 minutes. Most of our white belts do both sessions, unless they are brand new or just coming back from a layoff.

[slideyfoot]

Just curious, if you only have positional sparring and no free sparring, how do white belts prepare for comps? Is it through open mat sessions?

Not sure if that was addressed to me or Liam, but in my case, I only run one of the sessions at GB Bristol: there is plenty of free sparring the rest of the time. There is also an open mat on Sundays.

So, I don't generally have to worry about making sure they get in lots of free sparring on Thursdays. Instead, my focus is to make sure everybody has had plenty of time to try out the techniques we learned that day: IMO, you don't always get the chance during free sparring, especially if you're not very experienced yet.

E.g., if you learned how to set up a choke from the back that day, but you spend most of free sparring getting squashed under side control, trying to pass somebody's guard, not quite managing the arm drag from guard, etc, then you don't get a chance to try it out in a sparring setting. If you start off already on the back during sparring, then you do.

[frylock]

How about if one was to use the Gracie university but took the blue belt test live at the academy. Is the issue for people the way in which the curriculum is taught or the way in which the belt promotion is handled?