Like I said, I'm sure it is legal as an elbow lock, just not as a shoulder lock. Ude garame is one of the 9th kyu techs under the old BJA grading criteria, so the lock is valid - it just depends on how it's applied.
Originally Posted by wagon
yeah, can you shoot in for a double leg? any Judo experts know what is allowed and what isn't. I know there has been talk of rules changes but have no ideas what these are.
Originally Posted by The Natural
I think JSho and Simon would agree with me on this, but if you're interested in training Judo, then do it with a Judo mindset, rather then a BJJ or wrestling mindset, and you'll get a lot more out of it. If you look at all the techs and keep thinking to yourself "I'd do that the wrestling way" or "I'd never do that in a BJJ match", then you could end up missing a lot of what Judo has to offer. I sometimes go to my local Judo club for their randori sessions and try only to use proper Judo throws and sweeps, and not try for doublelegs or use sacrifice throws that will give me guard if it goes wrong. Sure I spend far more time flying through the air because of that, but if I just use the stuff I learn in BJJ, why even bother going to Judo?
yup, just go there and primarily try to learrn about throwing, balance, breakfalling etc.
With regard to the flying attacks; you cant throw someone with an 'armbar' therefore the kind of waki-gatame attack that someone like Shinya Aoki uses would be banned. Flying juji-gatame is fine and you can submit whilst still in standing (to my knowledge) although it is more often seen as a transition into ne-waza; that shouldnt be scored as a throw. Not sure about a flying sangaku/triangle nothing officially wrong but it is almost the equivalent of dragging someone to the floor; the official rule is that you should attempt a throw not simply pull guard; again arguable and a grey area for referee's.
Although I know Camilliro.. he was a menace and a little bit nasty often leaving armbars on to long etc; I have never heard of it being called the Camilliro rule; whilst I thought he was a knightmare to fight he was never that well known internationally in judo it seems to be another one of those 'American self-hype' things that they are so good at; but fair play he seems to be doing well in bjj now also.
With regard to the kimura move; officially you cant shoulder lock but the interpretation of that is forcing the shoulder up the back "hammerlock style"; a twisting style kimura/reverse ude-garami attack is legal because it is impossible to determine where the pressure is felt.. elbow or shoulder or both and is in the judo syllabus.
With regard to other official illegal moves in judo ne-waza; all leglocks, wristlocks are banned and neck/spine cranks; although again you would be surprised how much you can get away with in contest you wouldn't get away with trying to heel hook someone but its very difficult to say where the pressure is coming from in certain cranks etc.
Thanks for clearing that up, I knew shoulder locks were illegal, and that ude-garami was legal, but not the context in which it becomes legal
Originally Posted by jcraig80
There’s things in judo that are legal and not legal in BJJ which allot of people aren’t aware of. Such as grabbing your opponent by the waist and suplexing them onto there shoulders but the counter pick up allot of the time lands your opponent on his head its basically a suplex. In BJJ its my understanding that its illegal in competition and sparing?
However throwing onto the side from the waist is illegal in BJJ and judo. But throwing straight back supposedly onto the shoulders and not showing intent to throw onto the head is legal but not to the sides. This results in people being basically suplexed.
Bicep locks that are frowned upon and illegal in sparing and competition on BJJ are legal in Judo. The short arm scissor is legal. As long as the lock is in the elbow joint area its legal. I know the Bicep lock is on the bicep but most judo referees aren’t knowledgeable enough on the technique to know any different and the ones who are most consider this the elbow joint area.
Also being a muay thai practitioner always helps when going for throws the odd elbow is always thrown in competition and shido is only 3 points deducted if caught for an elbow or a punch if I am correct. A cut or a knockout can win a bout. Since BJJ is slower and there’s not many throws illegal elbows and punches are picked up easier and a the competitor of the illegal move disqualified this is very very rare in judo to be disqualified for a punch or elbow as long as you do it in a judo context. So osotogari UPPER CUT! or thumb joint strike to the external carotid artery running up the neck or a strike holding onto the gi with the inner forearm to the oesophagus.
I know of a Mauy Thai practitioner who has successfully and readily uses his muay thai elbow and punching techniques to win competitions and Vice versa Uchi mata and hip throws to help win Muay thai competitions.
Plenty of Judo players I would say most nowadays train in other martial arts the same as every martial art the time of the martial artists of 1 style training solely on 1 style is over this applies to BJJ also.
Last edited by DDC; 06-08-2008 at 06:58 PM.
some nice replies..thanx guys..