Acupunctire shown, again, to be no better than placebo.

[Rob T]

Accupuncture is used on animals with good results, especially racehorses which seems to rule out a placebo effect in thoses cases.

I've had it in the past & it worked for me.

Your anecdotal evidence is lovely. If I told you rubbing shit on my knee made it better, would that count as equally valid evidence?

Testing on animals does not rule out placebo effect, try again.

[Joat-Mon]

"Your anecdotal evidence is lovely. If I told you rubbing shit on my knee made it better, would that count as equally valid evidence?"

No I'd just assume it spilled out of your mouth when you were talking

[piratebrido]

Discusses placebo effects in animals

[piratebrido]

Acupunture didn't work for me when I had shoulder problems. But, I know that it has worked well for people with peripheral neuropathic pain.

There's also dry needling which is similar I think.

IMO I think it depends on the type of pain & your expectations as to the results you get.

I'm interested in learning this though to use as an additional treatment in private podiatry.

That's why controlled tests are required to rule out other factors. After all, salt water is shown to reduce pain when the person receiving it expects morphine. The placebo effect is an amazingly powerful thing. Ritual plays a big part in it. The tests have to be tightly control to try and eliminate bias. It has been shown that when those administering the treatments (tested substance and placebo) know which they are administering then it can change the outcome.

[Waterboy]

Aimed at noone in particular, but also kind of at everyone - whether you're critiquing crystal homeopathy or GSK's latest anti-depressant, it's important to be skeptical without being cynical.

[Joat-Mon]

Interesting.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/129048.stm

Countless studies show that exercise is more effective than prozac.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...searchers.html

Why is garlic not prescribed by doctors? very safe, no side effects.

[Rob T]

Interesting.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/129048.stm

Countless studies show that exercise is more effective than prozac.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...searchers.html

Why is garlic not prescribed by doctors? very safe, no side effects.

First off, your point on antidepressants is what exactly? Do you think that just because I call bullshit on "alt" medicine I must love pharmaceutical companies?

Daily Mail reporters are not exactly known for their scientific knowledge. In fact, they are one of the worst papers for reporting science. That article does not cite the research paper (I only skimmed it so maybe I missed it?). Without the original paper, that article means nothing.

Even so, let's say garlic does help lower blood pressure, that doesn't mean GPs are going to recommend it and do you know why? Because there are massive flaws in the way GPs work. That doesn't give any support to "alt" medicine, but does highlight a reason why they are able to steal money off so many people.


Waterboy, I am not cynical in the slightest, I just require real evidence (obtained from controlled, double blinded studies) rather than anecdotal evidence.

[Joat-Mon]

I agree there is a lot of bullshit in the alt remedy world, as in the pharma world.

I'm just asking why they wouldn't prescribe something cheaper & safer to patients? It makes financial sense if nothing else.

My point on prozac etc is that it's been proven less effective than a daily walk but is still prescribed to millions.

Doesn't make sense to me.

[Rob T]

Yeah, because the way GPs work is massively flawed.

When was the last time your GP asked you about your diet? Whether you exercise? How much you drink etc? They don't, because if they ask it can take a long time to discuss it... then they miss targets on the no. of people they are meant to see each day... usual bullshit.

GPs are basically paid to diagnose illness and that's it. There are good ones out there but the majority just listen to your symptoms, diagnose and then prescribe whatever they are meant to.

[Waterboy]

The only people that GP's see more of than patients are reps from pharmaceutical companies, who are paid handsomely and given vast expense accounts to do absolutely nothing but persuade them to prescribe more of their company's drugs.

To reinforce what Rob T says above...

Me, to friend's GP girlfriend "I'll be honest, I have serious grievances with your profession as a whole and the culture of prescribing anti-depressants and painkillers. Don't you think or agree that the vast majority of depression cases could be remedied by addressing one or more of sleep, diet, and exercise?"

"Yes, but you don't always have time to go into all that, a lot of the time the patient just wants a quick fix and it's easier, even if it's often placebo effect."

I plainly agree wholeheartedly with your views on GP culture Rob - but may I ask, did you form them based on a double blind, controlled study on GP diagnosing and prescribing habits, or from the experience of yourself and acquaintances?

I am of course, being a dick.