in my opinion any system based on points will results in stalling.
We often have no points tournaments in ireland but i feel this can actaully result in even more stalling - often if one fighter is far better than the other the inferior grappler will start playing to "not lose" because he knows if he makes the 5 minute mark the match will be ruled a draw. I had an amateur mma match with a kickboxer who had seen me warmup and knew he couldnt compete with me on the ground so he spent 5 minutes running away and jumped up and down cheering when time was called :/
I guess tho you are suggesting no time limit matches as opposed to just no points matches right tribulus?
To be honest Mark I don't have anything better than what you have experienced although I would advocate a coin toss to decide the match in the event of a draw.
This would in theory encourage the better grappler to push the fight in the final minutes but as you point out also encourages the lesser competitor to stall. (arguably could be the other way around in a points match)
I should point out that this argument is very much a hypothetical one for me as I think a common set of rules (CBJJ) is good for the sport even if they may be in need of some adjustment.
it should always be position first, the main difference between brazilians and brits is that most brits hunt for subs, and brazilians play the game they get the advantage and hold and play tight.
"A boxer is the best predator on land. The Lion, but throw him in the shark tank and he becomes just another meal" Renzo Gracie.
...and that's why Brazilians tend to do much better at the major competitions. To a lesser extent, American competitors too. Because in a large division, the sub hunter has a very small chance of winning ALL of their fights unless they are just significantly better than everyone else in their division, which at a major is unlikely or borderline impossible. So you need to know when to take a sub and get a fight out the way and when to grind out a win and play it safe. Because the other guy will be more than happy to do the same to you. @_@
A win's a win, after all. And if you think that a Purple Mundial Champion who won every single one of his fights 2-0 (I think Cory Robinson from Lloyd Irvin's did, for exxample) wouldn't tap almost any purple belt in the world on the mat, then...well, sadly you'd be let down. @_@
Grappling Record: 215 W (134 SUBs) - 85 L (13 SUBs) - 2 D
Amateur MMA Record: 15 W (14 SUBs) - 0 L - 2 D
The Jiujitsu Game
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Any intelligent and successful athlete will always play the ‘system’ to it’s fullest extent in order to win. It’s no different in real life. People who hate only do so because they’re less successful or feel like victims.
Allowing yourself to back into someones guard is a wise move to some. The bottom line is that if your strength is in passing but not retaining or submitting than maybe you’re better off going back and forth to collect points.
I know some competitors do a SWOT analysis on some match ups (i.e. Mike Fowler) and it def seems to work for him.
Last edited by Darkne$s; 07-12-2009 at 12:26 PM.
Does it for us **flex**
Every system is exploitable. If you try and plug every hole you just end up with a broken system that's too restrictive. Nae use tae naeb'dy!
There is a spirit of jiu jitsu that should be upheld. Not sure that you can uphold it using rules, but perhaps a vigorous boo'ing is required when someone breaks the spirit of jiu jitsu and does these dirty tricks.
I see BJJ as a game and everybody plays to their strengths and would be stupid not to.
If you do BJJ for self defence then points are of no relevance.
If you do it for MMA it's the same, points don't matter.
If your competing in a BJJ comp then you play your game and if thats a master at passing then thats what you should do, as many times as possible. At the end of the day a win is all that counts.
Nothing feels better than submitting someone though.
To me, the idea of playing such a negative strategy- to win on points, seems awful. To win on points, would feel similar to a loss. Win, or be submitted trying. THAT is how to do it.
Remember, BJJ done with the correct mindset can be a part of ones spiritual growth (which is how I view most things in my life). Are you really going to improve your spirituality with such a poor attitude? It's picking low hanging fruit.
Tap me, or try and I'll respect you. Play me for points and I won't. Whether you win or lose will not make a difference. It's HOW you play the game
I believe jiu jitsu is all about the submission. Its fine if you dominate a person positionally before submitting them but thats what counts; the sub.
If someone wins on points then they arnt necessarily better than their opponent at jiu jitsu, there just better at "playing the game". Very good at double legging and then very good at sticking their head in their opponents chest so they cant sweep or submitted for example. However when a fight ends by submission you know that he was better than his opponent as he conclusively BEAT him.
Im not a fan of the way BJJ competitions are scored as it obviously leads to a lot of stalling. In my opinion the best ways to judge a BJJ fight in order of least to most effective would be:
1. Urban gorilla and Rickson budo challenge rules where submission attempts are scored far higher than positions. As this leads to fast paced, aggressive, attacking orientated fights.
2. Judge subjectively, for example between the referee and the two table staff the fight is judged as a whole based on aggressiveness, effective grappling, dominate positions and near submissions. This would lead to exciting fights where the fighters attempt to make an impression on the judges by keeping up a high paced attacking style. Obviously the downside of this being very ambiguous decisions, bias, etc.
And without a doubt the most effective in my eyes -
3. No points, no time limits. First to a finish: How a fight should be.
Down side of this being that with a single fight potentially lasting a hour or so it would be an organisers nightmare. But i think with the knowledge that taking an opponent down and staying tight in his guard wont win you the fight it will force fighters to attack for the win and i think a lot of fights that would of normally lasted a full time limit in a normal fight would end quicker with system as they dont have an option to stall.