The final word of Rashad Evans' BB for Rolles himself

[LukeH]

I wonder if Evans had progressed through belts at all (As in he previously held a brown, purple, blue, white)? If so then his BB would be a bit more merited (with / without a GI). If he just went direct to BB, then each to their own, but it seems like its value is lowered to me.

One of the aspects to me about BJJ and it's grades is that they are not easily achieved. So when I hear someone is a purple, brown, black (even blue) I know they have been training very hard and showed a very high level of commitment. It would be shame to see that persona lost.

[kevinly]

I think this is a very interesting question. I asked Matt Thornton (President of SBGi, 10 years + BJJ Blackbelt) how he rated Randy Coutures grappling (Matt and Randy trained together for some years). He said, without doubt he was blackbelt standard. I countered, but does he train in the Gi. He said he didn't think he did. But the fact that Randy fought a submission match to a draw for 10 minutes with one of the best grapplers of all time (Jacare) surely that was evidence enough his Jiujitsu was high level.

As previous posters have mentioned, Chris Brennan is a no-gi wiz who considers his submission wrestling he teaches to be BJJ although he never wears the suit. All his grades are t-shirts, and he considers equivalent to bjj belts in all ways. There is a Chris Brennan affiliate in Dublin and all their blue/purples/browns are included in our BJJ grade register.

So in my opinion, Rashad Evans grappling is black belt standard. Obviously, at the high levels, the difference in rolling and competition in the Gi compared to without can be quite significant.

I would speculate, unless Rashad really got freaked out by the Gi (I've rolled with a really good no-gi guy (purple imo) who is almost useless in the gi, i think this is exception) that he could hold his own with a black belt in the Gi.

The timing and positional awareness that is fundamental part of BJJ stays pretty much the same imo in both arts.

Obviously those of the traditional BJJ background will not see proficiency in no-gi being equivalent to proficiency in the Gi. If you're to call yourself a BJJ blackbelt I would expect you to be able to roll at that standard in gi and no-gi and be quite masterful of the application of bjj in mma.

In conclusion, maybe politically Rashad Evans isn't a BJJ black belt (like Randy Couture) but in terms of his actual rolling ability (the actual important part) he is of that standard.

[BruceLeeMMAfighting.net]

But the fact that Randy fought a submission match to a draw for 10 minutes with one of the best grapplers of all time (Jacare) surely that was evidence enough his Jiujitsu was high level.
.

Jacare is 185 lbs. and a middleweight.

Randy is 225 to 205 lbs. and is either a heavyweight or a lightheavyweight.

I'm not sure what holding a smaller man with wrestling for 10 minutes really proves. Certainly not that Randy has a high level of jiu jitsu.

[kevinly]

Yeah you're right, I'm sure any decent 200 lb wrestler could keep Jacare on his back indefinitely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_q4Yf0SdAM

have you actually seen it?

[BruceLeeMMAfighting.net]

Yeah you're right, I'm sure any decent 200 lb wrestler could keep Jacare on his back indefinitely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_q4Yf0SdAM

have you actually seen it?

I'd say Couture is more than a decent wrestler. He's an NCAA D1 wrestler from Oklahoma State (which was the top school in the nation when he went there) who almost made the Olympic team.

[kevinly]

I'm not actually sure what you're saying? Randy Couture's submission wrestling ability isn't comparable to that of a Black belt in BJJ? Or that is it but it's only because he was successful in Collegiate Wrestling and Greco nationally?

What I see is an excellent grappler whose base is Wrestling. There is a slight size difference, and a significant age difference. randy is a fantastic athlete but Jacare is an absolute beast.

I presume you are aware that people like Randy, Henderson, Matt Hughes have spent similar amounts of time training on the mats doing submission grappling as Bjj black belts.

[BruceLeeMMAfighting.net]

I'm not actually sure what you're saying? Randy Couture's submission wrestling ability isn't comparable to that of a Black belt in BJJ? Or that is it but it's only because he was successful in Collegiate Wrestling and Greco nationally?

What I see is an excellent grappler whose base is Wrestling. There is a slight size difference, and a significant age difference. randy is a fantastic athlete but Jacare is an absolute beast.

I presume you are aware that people like Randy, Henderson, Matt Hughes have spent similar amounts of time training on the mats doing submission grappling as Bjj black belts.

Well I disagree that Randy is blackbelt level Brazilian Jiu Jitsu because he was able to control a much smaller man (Jacare) in a submission match to a draw.
That evidence is faulty to jump to that conclusion.

Also Randy got armbarred in a couple seconds by Enson Inoue in Rings.

So there are really too separate issues here. One, the evidence that is being given that Randy is BJJ blackbelt level is less than satisfying (controlling a smaller opponent to a draw, losing by armbar to Enson).

Second, I don't think Randy deserves a BJJ Blackbelt even if he was BJJ blackbelt level, if he never trained in Gi.

[kevinly]

Firstly, The Randy/Jacare fight is supporting evidence. It's not the sole criteria for assessing his game. as i said, Matt Thornton and Randy had trained together.

I find it hard to take you seriously. You reference a MMA fight from ~12 years ago. I'm sure 12 years ago Gunnar Nelson wasn't a black belt either.

[BruceLeeMMAfighting.net]

Firstly, The Randy/Jacare fight is supporting evidence. It's not the sole criteria for assessing his game. as i said, Matt Thornton and Randy had trained together.

I find it hard to take you seriously. You reference a MMA fight from ~12 years ago. I'm sure 12 years ago Gunnar Nelson wasn't a black belt either.

Hard to have an intelligent discussion if you are going to have a snotty attitude.

The supporting evidence (Jacare) you give, as I've said doesn't really show that Randy is Blackbelt level. He took a smaller man and controlled him to a draw.

Other than that you haven't offered in your post any other evidence that Randy is bjj blackbelt level.

Randy's got great NCAA level wrestling, of course, but I don't really consider him a submission wizard off his back. And to be honest TQ guys like Henderson, Lindalnd, Randy probably don't spend much time working on their bottom game but spend most of their submission time working on submission defense from the top.

[J-Sho]

Randy/Jacare is not eveidence of anything other than if you are a better wrestler than your opponent hand have 20 or 30 lbs weight on them , you can probably control the match/stall for a draw.

Randy was a mutiple time NCAA All American and Olympic team alternate and was also Senior US Champion, so better than your average.

Mark Kerr was a great grappler with multiple victories at ADCC, but he was hardly a good submission wrestler and noone would suggest he should be a black belt just because he outwrestled BJJ black belts.

Ironically Randy has more submission victories than Rashad, albeit 2 against Rashad's 1 or none (not sure which it was).