Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 37

Thread: While Helio's brand of Jiu-Jitsu emphasized technical proficiency, Carlson favored a

  1. #11
    Senior Member Rob T's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    South Wales
    Posts
    9,171

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird View Post
    Rickson- greatest player to date? Very arguable...
    Are you saying that all the jiu-jitsu guys who say he is the best ever are lying?

    When Graciemag got votes from multiple high level/world champion/old school guys who were the best BJJers of each decade, Rickson won the 80s and I think it was unanimous and they pretty much all said he was the best ever. He definitely won, I could be wrong on the rest but can't find the article.

    Paulo Fihlo said that he was way better than anyone else he had ever trained with. That is a guy who is making comparisons to awesome BJJers.

    Andre Galvao said Rickson smashed him when they did positional sparring from mount. Galvao could never escape and always tapped, Rickson always escaped.
    http://www.ChrisReesAcademy.com - http://thetattooedchimp.blogspot.co.uk/

  2. #12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird View Post
    Rickson- greatest player to date? Very arguable...

    I understand what you are saying,but for me, Carlson lost all his guys in the late 90's were his team at that time was the most sucessful. Just look at the guys winning the mundials, Bitetti, Sperry, Liborio, Busta + the others Ismail, Barreto, Filho, Arona, Medeiros. Not many teams had that many world class competitors on their roster.

    Anyway, dont buy the book its pretty bad by all acounts!! lol!!
    Whats arguable about rickson he won every bjj competition in his and the open class, prior to the start of the mundials, maia and galvao have also talked about his sheer domination on the mat, and still not one bjj player has come forward saying they could or have beaten him in sparring, the fact he is basically undefeated in training and competition is pretty crazy, who would you put above him? Jacare was also going on about going to rickson's seminars and learning so much.
    "A boxer is the best predator on land. The Lion, but throw him in the shark tank and he becomes just another meal" Renzo Gracie.

  3. #13

    Default

    I have the book and it is ok, nothing wrong with it technically, apart from the 'jello' guard which is de lariva guard. I would say if you can find it second hand or cheap, get it, more information good.

    On a side note, best BJJ book is Beneville-Cartmell's Passing the Guard and Saulo's University book. Royler Renzo theory and Practice has stood the test of time to some extent, don't bother with any of Royce's two books and Renzo/Danaher Mastering JuJitsu (sic) is th ebest essay on the subject from any book.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Meerkatsu's BJJ Blog

  4. #14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob T View Post
    Are you saying that all the jiu-jitsu guys who say he is the best ever are lying?

    When Graciemag got votes from multiple high level/world champion/old school guys who were the best BJJers of each decade, Rickson won the 80s and I think it was unanimous and they pretty much all said he was the best ever. He definitely won, I could be wrong on the rest but can't find the article.

    Paulo Fihlo said that he was way better than anyone else he had ever trained with. That is a guy who is making comparisons to awesome BJJers.

    Andre Galvao said Rickson smashed him when they did positional sparring from mount. Galvao could never escape and always tapped, Rickson always escaped.
    How do you define if someone is the best ever? By stories of greatness? Some people who claim this and havent even rolled or trained with him. Its like John Danaher, people regard him with a mystique of greatness and no doubt he would have excellent skills with a massive reputation but that is not enough for me.

    Galvao and Filho for all we know could be trying to show respect to Rickson by giving such compliments as he is undoubtedly a legend of the sport. I think the standard of todays BJJ far surpasses that of 20 years ago and it is very difficult to put a tag on someone as the greatest ever when he would not have faced the caliber and the depth of talent of todays standards.

    Rickson has hero worship status by an army of fans, and as i said it is arguable that he is the greatest ever.

  5. #15
    boxingbrit
    Guest

    Default

    When you read or hear so many top guys saying it it cant be just hero worship. I have personally discussed it with a BJJ Black belt who has trained with him and he said he and Liborio (sp) were a different level. Totally different to anyone he had ever trained with. He was from Carlsons and then BTT.

  6. #16

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by IranianWarMachine View Post
    Whats arguable about rickson he won every bjj competition in his and the open class, prior to the start of the mundials, maia and galvao have also talked about his sheer domination on the mat, and still not one bjj player has come forward saying they could or have beaten him in sparring, the fact he is basically undefeated in training and competition is pretty crazy, who would you put above him? Jacare was also going on about going to rickson's seminars and learning so much.
    What competitions were these? Mundials started in 1996.

    What big names did he beat? Who would come out and say that they smashed him even if they did? They would be vilified.

    Its like the Myth of Pele scoring 1200+ goals in football, his 400+ victories probably include sparring in the gym, rolls with Kron when he was 5 etc etc.

    I just dont buy it, and at the end of the day he may be the best ever but it is all opinion really when all is said and done.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Rob T's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    South Wales
    Posts
    9,171

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird View Post
    How do you define if someone is the best ever? By stories of greatness? Some people who claim this and havent even rolled or trained with him. Its like John Danaher, people regard him with a mystique of greatness and no doubt he would have excellent skills with a massive reputation but that is not enough for me.

    Galvao and Filho for all we know could be trying to show respect to Rickson by giving such compliments as he is undoubtedly a legend of the sport. I think the standard of todays BJJ far surpasses that of 20 years ago and it is very difficult to put a tag on someone as the greatest ever when he would not have faced the caliber and the depth of talent of todays standards.

    Rickson has hero worship status by an army of fans, and as i said it is arguable that he is the greatest ever.
    The people saying it have trained with him though. The older guys have seen him compete and train MANY times.

    Why would Galvao say Rickson smashed him? He has no links to him that matter and he is a Mundials champion. He has books and dvd sets being done... why would he want to talk himself down? To respect Rickson?

    Basically the whole of the BJJ community who matter (the guys who have had black belts for a long time, or have won world championships at black belt) say Rickson is the best ever. Loads of top BJJ guys bitch about each other for various things, you think Renzo or Wallid etc would be scared to say if the whole Rickson thing was bullshit? You think they're all just doing it out of respect?
    http://www.ChrisReesAcademy.com - http://thetattooedchimp.blogspot.co.uk/

  8. #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird View Post
    Rickson- greatest player to date? Very arguable...

    I understand what you are saying,but for me, Carlson lost all his guys in the late 90's were his team at that time was the most sucessful. Just look at the guys winning the mundials, Bitetti, Sperry, Liborio, Busta + the others Ismail, Barreto, Filho, Arona, Medeiros. Not many teams had that many world class competitors on their roster.!
    I wouldn't say wallid, rodrigo or barreto were truly world class - none of them medalled at the mundials as i recall. the other rodrigo medeiros (Comprido) has the better comp record if that is who you were thinking of. Bitteti and Sperry were more successful than Busta or Liborio as well. Arona had a silver at black belt but his greatest successes were at ADCC. Filho also had a silver from the mundials (and big nog a bronze).

    If your supposition is that Carlsons were consistently winning more stuff in the early days of the mundials than anyone else, then that isnt true either (although they were successful) since alliance, carlsons, humaita, barra and NU were all broadly similarly successful between 1996 and 2000, Alliance probably being the most successful by a small margin.

    1996
    Carlsons 3 gold
    Humaita 2 gold
    Alliance 1 gold/3 silver
    Barra 3 gold

    1997
    Carlsons (well Protesto as they were called that year) 2 gold/1 bronze
    Humaita 1 gold
    Alliance 1 gold/2 silver
    Barra 2 gold/1 silver
    Nova Uniao 2 gold/1 silver

    1998
    Carlsons 1 gold
    Humaita 2 gold
    Alliance 2 gold/2 silver/2 bronze
    Barra 3 gold/2 silver
    Nova Uniao 2 gold

    1999
    Carlsons 1 gold/1 silver/2 bronze
    Humaita 3 gold
    Alliance 4 gold/1 silver/1 bronze
    Barra 3 silver

    2000
    Carlsons none
    Humaita 2 gold
    Alliance 4 gold/3 bronze
    Barra 1 gold/1 silver
    Nova Uniao 3 gold/1 bronze

    None of the 3 guys to win gold under the BTT flag are Carlson's students originally (Mario Reis, Cassio Werneck and Margarida).


    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird View Post
    Rickson- greatest player to date? Very arguable...
    !
    lol, very indeed, but find any black belt who will say otherwise, it cannot be done. admittedly all his competition stuff was done in the 80's and there is no hard fact as with todays results, but when graciemag did a poll of senior bjj figures, the majority of them, including Carlson stated Rickson was the greatest (of the 80's).

    Annoyingly since their site upgrade they have removed the mundials and greatest decades articles. i'll email them to ask them to them put them back.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Rob T's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    South Wales
    Posts
    9,171

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird View Post
    his 400+ victories probably include sparring in the gym
    Dude, come on... everyone knows the 400-0 was marketing. No one is talking about the "Rickson Gracie is the god of vale tudo and would be unbeatable under UFC 1 rules" myth... that is just a myth.

    Like my post above. All the guys who matter say Rickson is the best. That is good enough for me.
    http://www.ChrisReesAcademy.com - http://thetattooedchimp.blogspot.co.uk/

  10. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IranianWarMachine View Post
    Whats arguable about rickson he won every bjj competition in his and the open class, prior to the start of the mundials, .
    well what is arguable is the evidence, there is no consistently documented evidence/results of any major bjj championship prior to the 1996 mundials.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This website uses cookies to enhance user experience. They can be disabled at any time. Please see our FAQ's for details.