BJ Penn's grappling credentials

[briant_gumble]

How well do you think penn would do now if he was to compete either gi or no gi against the top guys at his weight?

I remember marc Laimon said on mma junkie radio a couple of months ago before abu dhabi that on his list BJ penn was the no. 2 P4P grappler in the world behind marcelo garcia.

I though this was pretty shocking considering all the wrestling and striking training he does in addition to more conditioning that's probably required than if he was competing in bjj.

More surprising considering that I would have thought Laimon would have some insight into the top guys games having rolled with some of them unless his back is too bad? Rogan said on commentary that Laimon went on about how you can't underestimate just how tight penn's top game is until you've felt it.

[blanker]

well he was a world bjj champ so im guessing pretty well.

[Gareth]

well he was a world bjj champ so im guessing pretty well.

At black belt after about 4 years training too. I'd say it's a pretty safe bet his Gi game is still pretty good regardless of his other training.

[Darkne$s]

At black belt after about 4 years training too. I'd say it's a pretty safe bet his Gi game is still pretty good regardless of his other training.

If you look at this vids he's always rolling in a gi it seems.

[C_S_R]

I'm sure on his website he does instructional videos & there all in the gi.

[Rob T]

He must be awesome, think he still rolls gi every day.

Any list which doesn't have Roger as p4p no.1 is silly though.

[Allan Shrek]

Why is Roger undeniably number 1 P4P?

Cos he's won the most Absolutes? He is a 100kg fighter so he's not giving up huge weights so winning them isn't insane like it would be for Marcelo.

He's lost to Xande a few times in recent years so he's not unbeatable.

Personally I'd say Roger was P4P number 1 but I can see an argument why he shouldn't be.

[Rob T]

Cos the last Mundials he tapped everyone he fought and the last ADCC he did he tapped everyone he fought. No one else has done that at any weight.

People have beaten him, but no-one has tapped him (since blue belt?). He has tapped most (if not all?) the people who have beaten him at some point.

[IranianWarMachine]

Why is Roger undeniably number 1 P4P?

Cos he's won the most Absolutes? He is a 100kg fighter so he's not giving up huge weights so winning them isn't insane like it would be for Marcelo.

He's lost to Xande a few times in recent years so he's not unbeatable.

Personally I'd say Roger was P4P number 1 but I can see an argument why he shouldn't be.

I can't understand how marcelo can be put at no1 ever, he gets beaten by guys in his own weight catagory and guys in weights above him like braulio, roger and jaca dominate him.

P4P imo at this present time,
1) roger
2) jacare

When jacare was competing i'd have him above roger due to the weight disadvantage yet roger is only 3-2 against jacare.

[J-Sho]

my $0.02

1). Do you guys really know what P4P means? Remove p4p from the equation, i don;t think Roger is p4p #1, but i do think he is the most accomplished of recent times. Roger has the two most impressive feats in grappling (winning both divisions in adcc and at the mundials, all by sub). He also has 3 ADCC golds to Xande's two and Jacare's two and 8 Mundials Blakc Belt Golds to Xande's 6 and Jacare's 3. TBH Xande and Roger are the elite gi players of the last decade, Jacare (on results) is not at their level (he lags behind moura, saulo, cobrinha, royler, roleta and gurgel on an all time list in any case). Roger and xande share the impressive achievements for 2 time absolute champs at the mundials and both times they won their weight divisions.

Yes he has lost in a gi to Xande, Jacare and PDP, but so what, everyone loses, there is no sporting great who has not lost either marginally or catastophically at some stage of their career, even when at the very peak of their game (Silva, Penn, Fedor, Senna, Federer, Woods Nadal, Tyson, Ali, Karelin, Satiev etc). All three of those guys have had far more significant losses (PDP losing to Terere & PDP getting smashed by Margarida for example).

As Rob stated, Roger hasn't been submitted in competition since he was a blue belt and his list of submissions of other Mundials/ADCC champions is impressive (Xande 3 times, Saulo, Jacare, Terere, Garcia, Comprido twice, Drysdale 3 times, Cacareco, Werdum, Margarida, Leite, Barral twice) - show me any other gi/no gi player who has that kind of record.

In terms of categories he has contested, he has made 13 out of 13 finals at the mundials - show me any other gi/no gi player who has that kind of record.

Roger has lost one match at his weight category (nogi) and none in the gi in the past 7 years - show me any other gi/no gi player who has that kind of record.

In terms of Roger/Xande head to head at elite level:

off the top of my head, Roger beat Xande:
*2003 ADCC Category 3rd Place playoff (points)
*2005 ADCC Category Semi Final (submission)
*2005 ADCC Absolute Semi Final (submission)
*2005 Mundials Super Heavy Final (points)
*2006 Pan Ams Absolute Final (submission)

and Xande beat Roger:
*2006 Mundials Absolute Final (points)
*2008 Mundials Absolute Final (points)
*2006 Pan Ams Super HeavyFinal (advantage)

In terms of Jacare/Roger at the elite level off the top of my head, Roger beat Jacare:
*2003 Brown Belt Absolute final (points)
*2005 Europeans Absolute final (points)
*2005 ADCC Absolute Final (submission)

and Jacare beat Roger:
*2004 Mundials Absolute Final (points)
*2005 Mundials Absolute Final (points)

PDP and Roger only fought that one time.

Jon Olav Einemo is the only person to beat Roger in ADCC (2003 by points) and Roger beat him in the 2007 superfight (by points)

2). Marcelo has only been beaten twice in his weight category since 2003 (when Terere subbed him in the mundials final), once by Cameron Earle in a modified rules gi match (he would have won under CBJJ rules and once by points to Popovitch in ADCC). He has smashed all his peers at medio over the years (including pablo twice & galvao several times), 3 ADCC titles in a row and 3 mundials titles makes him a little bit special.

Jacare hasn't competed in a gi since 2005, didn't do ADCC 2007 and only competed in the Superfight in ADCC 2009. How is he in anyway in contention for a current P4P list.

In terms of gi, Cobrinha is probably p4p the best of the past few years (and you'd have to throw the Mendes brothers, Langhi and Garcia into a list as well), i'd have a stab at:

Terere 2003/2003/2004
Jacare 2004/2005
Cobrinha 2006/7/8/9

3). BJ Penn is an exceptionally talented grappler, Gumby rates him above even Roger in terms of his ability to "get" BJJ. How would he do today? Who knows, i don't think he could make the -67.9 or -67 categories for ADCC/Gi respectively and the divisions above would be pretty challenging. Gi ven his natural talent, if he focused specifically on gi or no gi in the run up to a comp, i don't see why he couldn't at least medal, but he isn't getting any younger.